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Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

Les Fusils Militaires Français, Chassepot, Gras, Lebel, Berthier et MAS 36
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72 usmc
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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#31 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:38 pm

If you can find someone that reads French, it appears they make reproduction screw sets for the rifles see:


http://www.tircollection.com/t29391p25- ... 3-de-braco

I can not make heads or tails of this, I had only one semester of French about 100 years ago in HS :lol: :lol:

This would be neat to have as a spare set of screws:(basically screw 29 and 31 are tang screws)
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 9.34.29 PM.png
from diagram #31 screw vis queue de culasse
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 9.27.37 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 9.28.20 PM.png
screw # 29 Vis de pontet
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 9.32.16 PM.png
Last edited by 72 usmc on Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#32 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:54 pm

Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 6.32.42 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 10.27.03 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 10.27.03 PM.png (79.32 KiB) Viewed 2033 times

The screw you need is this one I believe: all these pictures enlarge clicked upon
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... menclature

# 34 Vis transversal ( Basically the receiver screw) THESE MAY BE INCORRECT Photos, see Kelts information. These are most likely the Lebel Magazine cut off spring screw possible #44 on the diagram. See lower photo from Gun Parts.
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 10.15.38 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 10.15.19 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 10.34.15 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 10.34.15 PM.png (144.3 KiB) Viewed 2031 times
Last edited by 72 usmc on Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:18 pm, edited 9 times in total.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#33 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:09 pm

Ummh, got my French dictionary in my toolbox (no joke). I might give it a go tomorrow. I did notice they were discussing heat treating down at the bottom of page two. Looks like he might have made his own cutters to do some of those screws. I presently do not have a lathe to turn threads on, just a crude button die. The two manual lathes we have at work don't have a synch gear for cutting threads. I almost want to get one now. I presently do not know how to program a CNC to cut threads. I think the boss might get perturbed if I tried on his time. Ummh, I could call it training....... I have turned threads manually....once and successfully.

Best Regards,

Mark

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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#34 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:38 pm

:shhh: :doh: :roll: :roll:
All this talk about Lebel parts makes me want one to mess with.

nice close up view here and info on lebel:
http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/FR%20Mle ... 20M93.html
Last edited by 72 usmc on Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#35 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:02 am

They have quite a character,...don't they? Oh, did I mention history? Personally, I really like their looks.

Best Regards,

Mark

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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#36 Post by kelt » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:29 am

I did not check the info provided by me in message #29, the pitch of the thread mentioned herein was wrong, the original thread on new rifles was 5mm dia by 1mm pitch, to be changed to 5,5mm by 1mm for abused rifles when the receiver needed re-tapping.

here is an original drawing of the transversal screw (Vis de mécanisme).
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vis de mecanisme.jpg

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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#37 Post by 72 usmc » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:37 am

I have no idea why one source has treads at the top and the other has treads at the bottom. I would go with Kelt. He is the expert. Can anyone actually show an actual screw from their rifle #34? It appears the screw shown in the French listings that I show as screen shots-both examples are incorrect? :doh: :doh: I did a search under: Vis transversante mecanisme lebel, ( https://www.naturabuy.fr/VIS-TRAVERSANT ... 27626.html ), Who knows what screw this actually is. If I get a lebel I am going to take actual pictures of the screws and parts. There is no data on this information. :violin:
Kelt, Thanks for the correct information.

I found this mystery screw on Gun parts page: THE MAGAZINE CUT OFF SPRING SCREW
Screen Shot 2019-06-25 at 11.06.42 AM.png
We still need an actual close up view of an original Lebel transversal screw (Vis de mécanisme) :pray: :pray: :pray: It seems this screw is missing on more than a few Lebel rifles.
This may be a correct picture? It certainly looks more like #34 in the diagram and the one on the rifle photo I marked #34. source: https://www.naturabuy.fr/Vis-transversa ... 04760.html
I am not sure, but I think its approximately $43 for one screw?? Is that right? yeps.
Screen Shot 2019-06-25 at 11.27.06 AM.png
If I was in France, I don't think I could even order a coke.
Last edited by 72 usmc on Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#38 Post by kelt » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:37 pm

One of mine, made in April of 1917
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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#39 Post by 72 usmc » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:38 pm

Thank You.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#40 Post by Ken W » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:35 pm

72 usmc wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:38 pm
If you can find someone that reads French, it appears they make reproduction screw sets for the rifles see:


http://www.tircollection.com/t29391p25- ... 3-de-braco

I can not make heads or tails of this, I had only one semester of French about 100 years ago in HS :lol: :lol:

This would be neat to have as a spare set of screws:(basically screw 29 and 31 are tang screws)
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 9.34.29 PM.png

from diagram #31 screw vis queue de culasse
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 9.27.37 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 9.28.20 PM.png

screw # 29 Vis de pontet
Screen Shot 2019-06-24 at 9.32.16 PM.png

Here's alink using Google Translate for that page:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 3-de-braco

The translation is less than perfect but it's mostly comprehensible. I would be very nice to have that set of screws.

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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#41 Post by Ken W » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:49 pm

72 usmc wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:37 am
I have no idea why one source has treads at the top and the other has treads at the bottom. I would go with Kelt. He is the expert. Can anyone actually show an actual screw from their rifle #34? It appears the screw shown in the French listings that I show as screen shots-both examples are incorrect? :doh: :doh: I did a search under: Vis transversante mecanisme lebel, ( https://www.naturabuy.fr/VIS-TRAVERSANT ... 27626.html ), Who knows what screw this actually is. If I get a lebel I am going to take actual pictures of the screws and parts. There is no data on this information. :violin:
Kelt, Thanks for the correct information.

I found this mystery screw on Gun parts page: THE MAGAZINE CUT OFF SPRING SCREW
Screen Shot 2019-06-25 at 11.06.42 AM.png

We still need an actual close up view of an original Lebel transversal screw (Vis de mécanisme) :pray: :pray: :pray: It seems this screw is missing on more than a few Lebel rifles.
This may be a correct picture? It certainly looks more like #34 in the diagram and the one on the rifle photo I marked #34. source: https://www.naturabuy.fr/Vis-transversa ... 04760.html
I am not sure, but I think its approximately $43 for one screw?? Is that right? yeps.
Screen Shot 2019-06-25 at 11.27.06 AM.png

If I was in France, I don't think I could even order a coke.

Yes, it's the second one for €38 and with the €10 shipping that's pretty much a $55 screw. Not exactly affordable. I have no idea if that's the norm for those or if that seller simply is asking way too much. It's the only one of them on the entire site though so...... :?

I was on another site, galeriedemars, where they have the cross bolt and bolt head connecting screw listed but you need to send a message inquiring whether they are currently available and how much they cost. If it's anything like most other stuff on that site it'll be a small fortune. They have an H&R Victor priced at over $1,000 plus a couple other black powder round era H&R revolvers at $1,200. Those are $100 - $150 guns here. Looks like they've done to normal firearms what our gov't has done to us with full auto weapons and made it so only the wealthy can afford to get anything. Now those super inflated prices might just be for complete firearms and the individual parts might not be such but I'm not holding my breath.

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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#42 Post by Ken W » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:44 pm

kelt wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:29 am
I did not check the info provided by me in message #29, the pitch of the thread mentioned herein was wrong, the original thread on new rifles was 5mm dia by 1mm pitch, to be changed to 5,5mm by 1mm for abused rifles when the receiver needed re-tapping.

here is an original drawing of the transversal screw (Vis de mécanisme).
Thanks for the update. This would be a right hand thread, correct?

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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#43 Post by kelt » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:57 pm

Yes

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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#44 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:03 pm

Okay, now that I know what that thread is, I can likely actually use a #12-24 die to make it. 5.5mm by 1.0 threads are .03937" wide per tooth. 24 threads per inch are .0416" wide per tooth. I think it has a good chance to function regardless especially since so little thread is needed. 5.5mm by 1 is what is referred to as a "bastard" thread or something you can't get off the shelf commercially. If you have the equipment to make it, like a computerized machine tool, or a lathe with synchronized gearing to cut threads, you can pretty much make a bastard thread from raw stock at will, Give me some time, the boss seems grumpy lately. I'm willing to trash my el cheapo button die just for you now. I'll just use regular steel for this one. I can put it in my Lebel to see if it works. My calculations from my own bolts pointed to 5.5mm by the charts I had for commercial threads, but the pitch count was not on any chart for 5.5mm or 5mm. 6mm is actually a 1mm pitch, but that would be too wide.

I might be taking my Lebel apart now. I had an offer from an old member to repair my magazine tube. Somebody did a bad job repairing it and I'd like to have it look better. It still works, but you can see the split and glue marks. An arsenal repair is usually done much better. If I remember correctly, taking out the tube magazine had a few tricks to it. So much for reloading for the old gal for now. I will also have to remove glue from my barrel and hopefully give her a cold rebluing. Ain't my first time to the redeo on one of these. She's a bit of a butt with mismatched parts, but her bore is very good and that's all that matters to me. The old gal deserves some TLC.

A big thank you for Kelt in supplying those dimensions. I never studied French, so I have zero idea how to say it, but I think "Mercy" is correct though.

Oh this is for Kelt. I once asked my Japanese professor why he studied in Korea and married a Korean. He told me that Korean sounded like a beautiful language to him, much like what French sounds like to an American, so he was hooked. I cannot spell my own language well, so French for me is out of the question. There is alway Google Translate.

Best Regards,

Mark

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Re: Help needed in saving an 1886/93 Lebel

#45 Post by les1234 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:26 pm

So the #12-24 might work. But it may depend on if the OP's rifle still has the 5mm threads, or if it has the 5.5 But there's really not much tension on that screw, other than just to keep it in place. The main thing seems to be the diameter, for a tight fit, and the taper to help get it started in the hole.

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