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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:44 pm 
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My cousin has a Lebel he was curious about and this seems like the place to ask. What would be the fair market value of a typical Berthier Model 1916 long infantry rifle (it is longer than a Gewehr 98), near perfect blue, no import mark, stock has a dark tiger-oak look without any carving, bore near perfect, and long cruciform bayonet (bayonet serial number does not match the rifle)?

The only missing part is the lower part of the magazine that attaches below the receiver. …Thanks


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Last edited by www.Prussia.us on Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:26 pm 
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The missing part(s) can be had at Springfield Sporters in PA. As to value, generally, we have to see it to tell exactly....http://ssporters.com/ Is the web site, you have to call on the phone to order..

Dale

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:16 pm 
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Here is 1 picture, I will try to get more, but it shows the tigerwood effect of the stock.

I did not know that Springfield Sporters had that part, Russ is the best. Always busy but always good to answer questions no matter how big or small the order, he could write a book 10 times better than the ones out there on many of these military bolt actions. his knowledge is immense....


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:54 pm 
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Prussia: Yours is complete like it is, a 3 shot Berthier in the 1907 configuration as modified in 1915. You have a good one if the stock, bolt, bolt head, and trigger guard match. The walnut is like that from alternating hot and cold weather during growth, when the linseed oil oxidizes, the contrast comes out. They did not intend that, just that was the effect on stocks when so much wood was harvested in WW 1..

I guess if all matched, about $300.00 +, the bayonet is for the Lebel, not the Berthier, so I am not including that. The bayonets are interchangeable, but we are fussy about it here!!! :D

Dale

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If those little Sweethearts won't face German bullets, then they'll face French ones!
George McReady in Paths of Glory 1955


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:54 pm 
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VonMazur, thanks for the information it is VERY helpful. That was exactly what I had been curious about.

I cannot help but feel sorry for the French, or French-colonial, that was stuck with only 3 rounds during the chaos of the Great War. Of course the 5 in the Mauser 98 may not have been much better, I guess the British had the right idea with the 10 round Enfield. Then again one wonders during those massive offensive charges how much small arms fire actually occurred between the machine guns and artillery........


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:45 am 
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The Lebel Rifle you have is correct! There is nothing missing, it is in fact an original 3 shot Lebel. These were issued to the french foriegn legion as well as the regular french army. The bayonet is 100% correct for this model weapon. Value between 600 and 700 dollars with the bayonet. The Berthier Carbine in fact uses a bayonet similar in style to a k98 german mauser. except for a bit of a twill. Your rifle uses a 3 shot clip which you can find listed in the gun list and shot gun news. Ammuntion for these rifles are becoming more popular as more people are collecting them. These were issued to the french foriegn legion because the 5 shot berthier and the Lebel tube gun would offer these refuges too much of a chance to revolt. Your rifle is rare. I have many berthier carbines and rifles and many type of bayonets. I have been collecting for over 30 years. If you would like some original ammo, reloaded or even some original clips please let me know. They are very accurate and fun to shoot! You can buy the dies from lee precision for 30.00 and the brass is about 30.00 for 100 rounds new! The original ammo is hard to reload because it has berdan primers. Can you tell I love to talk about french rifles!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:03 am 
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Actually La Légion étrangère did in fact use the Fusil d'Infanterie Mle.1886 M.93 and were one of the first French units issued these NEW SMOKELESS weapons back in the late 1880's. The Mle.M.1916 along with the Mosqueton d'Artillerie Mle.M.1916's were used after WWI in remote places (colonies) such as Morocco, Algeria, Syria and Indochina
These weapons are not that rare here in the USA and can be found at most gunshows.
The bayonet with the quillion ( hooked part) was rarely used on Berthiers ... I have only ever seen one photo of one on a Berthier Long Rifle.
You still have a very nice piece there.

Legionaires moving to the front in Indochina during the Franco-Thai War with Mousqueton d'Artillerie Mle.M.1916's
Attachment:
frenchinf2.jpg
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Vive La République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

Vive le Pinard !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfM1sFqIK0


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:35 pm 
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Patrick, the soldiers in the picture have the colonial infantry anchor on their helmets not the Legion's grenade, and I don't think that the Foreign Legion used these light helmets designed to keep the head cool in hot climate, that was too luxurious for the Foreign Legion.

The Foreign Legion was not considered an elite troop until 1948/1950, and before that their equipment, albeit identical to that of other French units of the same qualification was not the most advanced.

When the Lebel was introduced, the Foreign Legion based in North Africa and other Colonies must have been among the last units to receive the new rifle, delivered as a priority to the units based near the German border.

kelt


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:04 pm 
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HMMMM ... I got this picture as La Légion étrangère from a friend in Thailand who got a copy of it from thier Army museum in Bangkok ... I never noticed it before ... I will have to let him know it.
I did do some research into the Mle.1886 issuance from my Legion friend in France and he stated that the Legion did get one of the very first few batches of rifles ... I will ask him to send me the letter he found regarding that. I do know that the majority did go to the units such as the 151ème Régiment d'Infanterie de Ligne who were stationed at Verdun near the border.
Patrick

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Vive La République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

Vive le Pinard !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfM1sFqIK0


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:09 pm 
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Patrick,

Your friend is most likely right about the legion being issued some Lebel at an early stage of its deployment, all infantry units did receive small quantities of Lebel to train their soldiers into the new weapon, that was SOP since 1874.

That procedure to quicly deploy a new weapon to all units for instruction purpose was started with the Gras Rifles and evolved from a lesson learned during the 1870 war.

The chassepot was available in large quantities at the mobilisation in 1870, but many of the soldiers who received it had never being trained with it and had difficulties to adapt to the new bolt action system, all their expertise was with muzzle loaders, only those still in active duty at the begining of the war and already equiped with the Chassepot were familiar with it.

kelt


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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 3:06 am 
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Anyone know where to get 3 rd clips for them ??


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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:20 pm 
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You can get reproductions from Gary's Guns ... http://www.garysguns.com/stripper.htm
but a bit of a *WARNING*
These 3-round BERTHIER chargers are NOT originals, these are the reproductions that were made for Old Western Scrounger back in the early 1980's. These are known for having problems in that they will not lock up in the magazine as the little tab on the rear of the charger is too not long enough to be held by the charger latch. You will have to get a little block of wood and hammer to help punch this tab to open it up so that the charger latch can grap the charger properly. The one good thing about these chargers is that they are stainless steel.
If you want originals you will have to search ebay, gunbroker or auction arms for them but will cost you around $40 for just one.
Patrick

_________________
Vive La République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

Vive le Pinard !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfM1sFqIK0


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