Where in America can I buy

Alan De Enfield
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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by Alan De Enfield »

72 usmc wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:22 pm


So in America they sell 3 gauges for most rifles???

As I tried to explain it is an Americanism invented by the American Institute : SAAMI

They then tried to "force-fit" the American specifications onto previously designed firearms and ammunition.

A typical example is where SAAMI 30 cal ammunition (which obviously covers 303) is far thinner than ammunition made to military specifications.

Wall thickness and rim thickness are all 'at the minimum'.

Two cartridges compared : Prvi Partisan (PPU) manufactured to mil spec and Winchester manufactured to SAAMI specifications.
New, unfired cases.
Attachments
EDs Rim Thickness.jpg
Eds case thickness.jpg
"When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over many years,

the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic". Dresden James

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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by 72 usmc »

So if my Mosin gauge is a supposed FIELD gauge at .074 this makes sense why I never found a rebuilt Mosin imported rifle that failed on my so called field gauge. I was sent a wrong gauge or out of spec FIELD gauge for a Mosin. At .074, it is a actually a Mosin NO GO gauge, not a Mosin FIELD gauge. At least by Firewerks data.

see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLhtJBJr6yY
Screen Shot 2020-06-24 at 3.14.33 PM.png
Funny after all these years, I got two British gauges and no Mosin FIELD gauge at .0765 :snooty: :snooty: I guess its great all of my Mosins pass a NO GO :lol: :roll: :shhh: :shhh:
FIREWERKS GAUGES ARE MILITARY SPEC
Looks like I need a Firewerks Mosin FIELD gauge at .0765 :think: :think:
http://firewerks.net/shop/firewerks-headspace-gauges/

Of course they are out of stock, but have the NO GO .073 gauges :violin: :violin: $23 perfect for SB :clap: So back to SB he found a easy to order NO GO .074 Mosin //Enfield gauge. :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: Diameter should be the same.

Hold on, these are also for sale on AMAZON for $24.56 with free shipping. Ya Hoo, so I just found a correct Mosin FIELD gauge .0765 for under $25. Check it out SB. You certainly started an interesting post. All you need to buy is a Mosin NO GO = Enfield NO GO /no such thing FIELD gauge. A true .074/ .073 military spec for your needs! It will do ya.
Last edited by 72 usmc on Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:35 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by Tommy Atkins »

Alan De Enfield wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:54 pm
72 usmc wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:07 pm

And Enfield is .074 =Field gauge.

Just to correct the terminology : there are only two headspace gauges for Lee Enfield's GO and NO-GO

The Go (Reject) is 0.064"
The NO-Go (High Limit) is 0.074"

The 'Field gauge' term was introduced by SAAMI but The Enfield pre-dates SAAMI.
If you ask for a Lee Enfield 'Field' gauge you will never find one.

Other dimensions of headspace gauges (eg 0.067") were available for armourers to use at various levels of maintenance - eg when rebuilt (or a new barrel) the rifle must 'pass' the 0.067" and 0.064" gauges.

There are only two gauges issued for general use.
Different terminology in different nations I think.
.303 Enfield Gauges (Mil spec)
Headspace is measured in different ways on different calibers. For a rimmed cartridge such as the .303 British Enfield, headspace is the distance between the bolt face and the face of the chamber where the loaded cartridge rests. In a rimless cartridge such as a .308 the headspace is measured to the shoulder of the cartridge. This dimension is important for proper and safe firearm function regardless of the type of cartridge being checked. Too little headspace will not allow the bolt to fully close rendering the weapon unable to fire. Too much headspace can cause excess chamber pressure, as a result of the cartridge not being held firmly in the chamber on firing. This can be particularly dangerous given the chamber pressures generated by centerfire rifle cartridges.

Headspace gauges generally come in 3 sizes:
GO: measures the minimum acceptable headspace. This size is most often used when re-barreling or re-chambering a firearm.
NO-GO: This gauge is used to check for excessive headspace. If a firearm closes on the NO-GO gauge it is an indication that the weapon MAY not be safe to fire. Reloading ammunition for a firearm that fails NO-GO can result in unsafe loads due in part to the expended brass being elongated as a result of not being firmly chambered. Most military surplus firearms that pass NO-GO (the bolt will not fully close on the gauge) are considered safe to fire with surplus ammunition, or with modem loads not intended for reloading.
FIELD: A firearm failing the NO-GO spec can be tested on the slightly more forgiving FIELD gauge. Military chamber specifications are generally looser than commercial firearms, giving them a bit of tolerance for adverse conditions such as dirty chambers, weather extremes, etc. A firearm passing FIELD spec (not closing fully on the gauge) is generally considered safe to fire the ammunition it was designed to fire, i.e. military surplus ammunition of the designated caliber.

These are to be considered GENERAL GUIDELINES and are in no way intended to be an assurance of the safety of a particular firearm. If you have doubts about a firearm's safety and usability you should have it checked by a professional gunsmith.

Directions for use:
Make sure the firearm to be checked is UNLOADED.
Open and close the bolt on an empty chamber several times, making note of the amount of pressure needed to close the bolt. Knowing how the bolt feels on closing is important for proper usage of the gauge.
Wipe the gauge with a clean dry cloth to remove the protective oil residue. These gauges are made from hardened and ground 4140 steel for precision and durability, but they WILL rust if not kept oiled when not in use. A drop of any light oil such as 3 in 1 or gun oil will be sufficient. Re-oil the gauge before storing it in its bag.
Open the bolt far enough to allow you to insert the gauge on the bolt face, aligning the notch in the gauge with the extractor. The dim­ples in the gauge are for identification only and can face the chamber OR the bolt face.
GENTLY slide the bolt forward and with light finger pressure close the bolt. If you feel resistance DO NOT FORCE THE BOLT CLOSED. This can damage both the gauge and the firearm being tested.
The gauges are slightly magnetic and may stick to the chamber face when opening the bolt.
For the GO gauge the bolt should FULLY CLOSE with minimal pressure to pass.
For the NO-GO or FIELD the bolt SHOULD NOT fully close with minimal pressure to pass.
A qualified gunsmith must inspect any firearm failing both the NO-GO and FIELD before attempting to fire it. Failure to do so may result in personal injury or even death!

. DISCLAIMER
Okie Headspace Gauges assumes no liability for injury or damage caused by unsafe or improper use, malfunctions, defects, or other factors related to the use of any firearm. Our gauges are intended for use only as a preliminary inspection tool, and as such are not intended to re­place a full inspection by a qualified gunsmith. Headspace is only one of a number of factors that can affect the safety of a firearm. Okie Headspace Gauges highly recommends that any firearm, regardless of age, be fully inspected by a gunsmith familiar with the type of firearm in question prior to use.

GO NO-GO FIELD
(One dimple) (Two dimples) (Three dimples)
GO = 0.064" NO-GO = 0.067" FIELD = 0.074".
Unfortunately Okie is no more, he was a one man band & has passed, BUT

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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by 72 usmc »

Alan, On another note, I have noticed different .303 brass can vary in rim thickness by a wee bit.
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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by Alan De Enfield »

72 usmc wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:47 pm
Alan, On another note, I have noticed different .303 brass can vary in rim thickness by a wee bit.
Indeed - SAAMI tends to be nearer the bottom end of the specification and is typically around 58 thou.
The likes of PPU and other European, and ex-military tends to be around 62 thou.

That means that if your rifle is 'near the top end' of headspace limits using a thin rimmed case is actually effectively increasing your headspace by 'typically' 4 thou.

Your headspaced rifle at 0.072" now becomes 0.076" (over specification) simply by using the 'wrong spec' cartridges.

It is not the end of the world as there were Military proposals to increase the headspace allowance :

Index to Army Council Instructions Affecting Armourers
1942
Document Number 1807
“Rifles No.1. Fitting of Boltheads”
CHS permitted to extend to 0.080-inch if new bolt heads N.A.

Picture shows Rim thickness gauge measuring Win 303 and PPU 303
Attachments
EDs Rim Thickness.jpg
Top.jpg
Bottom.jpg
Last edited by Alan De Enfield on Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over many years,

the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic". Dresden James

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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by 72 usmc »

Thank you all for your expertise, a very interesting post.
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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by 72 usmc »

SB I PMed you . I will let you know the size of my Firewerks Mosin FIELD gauge. I assume it will be .0765, not .073. I believe you need the .073/.074 NO GO Mosin gauge?? See Amazon I ordered it today and no idea when it will ship out. Did you get the bullet style gauge under your extractor? You should be able to do that. If things come to worse I can send my coin gauge and you send it back. I will let you know the actual size of the Mosin Field gauge. You are in Ill I am in WI.


A interesting post about Enfield headspace: https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... asurements
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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by 72 usmc »

4(T)
LE

11 Nov 2010
#26
Dogface said:
Don't know what you mean about internet myth regarding SAAMI. Since most ammunition and cartridge cases encountered these days are SAAMI spec vs military, SAMMI headspace gauges are what one should use. SAAMI gauge may indicate a fiream unsafe to fire and unless using military brass with thicker web I'll go with the SAAMI gauge's indication every time even if it passes military tolerances.
SAAMI .303 "no go" is .067". The correct design headspace gauge to use is the Commonwealth "Field" of .074" (war use tolerance allowed up to 0.84"). Not surprising that some perfectly in-spec rifles "fail" a SAAMI gauge, as the correct minimum "go" is 0.64".

Thus SAAMI spec was wrong from the outset, and now some US manufacturers make cases with thin rims that would not pass a standard military quality check if that ammo were being procured today.

In Europe and most of the world, shoooters are best to ignore SAAMI and stick with the real headspace specs, as all surplus and most modern and recent production (HXP, PMP, Privi, Wolf, S&B, PPU, Kynoch, etc) use the normal military dimensions.

In US you have the silly situation that two specs of ammo are in circulation, but the majority of shooters don't understand the situation. This has spawned a vast internet headspace confusion, and a scramble for longer boltheads to "tighten up" headspace. The ironic thing is that most of these "headspace tighten-ers" are probably actually (a) making an in-spec rifle out of spec (most have no idea about fitting a bolthead correctly); (b) actually accelerating wear on their rifle by then having over-tight headspace when they come to use military-spec ammunition.

The other factor in this is that over-generous head space has no real effect other than possibly to shorten the life of poor quality (thin) brass. Ergo, its best to stick with the specification that was designed into the weapons system.
source: https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threa ... st-3493020
ENFIELD .303
British specifications NO GO .074, GO .064 military

SAAMI USA specifications Clymer gauges are Go .064, NO GO .067, FIELD .074

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mosin 7.62x54R coin gauge specifications military
GO .065, NO GO .073, FIELD .076
The FireWerks gauges for 7.62x54R measure:
"Go" measures 0.0655", 1.66mm "No-Go" measures 0.0725", 1.84 mm "Field" measures 0.0755", 1.91 mm

The Forster gauges for Enfield .303 British measure (from published data):
"Go" measures 0.064", 1.62mm "No-Go" measures 0.067", 1.71 mm "Field" measures 0.070", 1.78 mm
Those Forster gauges for .303 are to the SAMMI spec. British Field allows .074 inch.
The Okie coin gauges and Yankee military spec coin gauges measure :
GO = 0.064" NO-GO = 0.067" FIELD = 0.074".
Both Forster and Clymer bullet style gauges are made to SAAMI specifications not military specs. Use a Forster or Clymer bullet style headspace FIELD gauge on an Enfield and it closes on it, the rifle could still pass on a military spec .074 gauge. I like Military specification gauges for my surplus rifles.

Hence, if you need a cheep coin gauge for an Enfield that is available in the US only, Firewerks makes Mosin gauges and you should buy a Mosin NO GO that should measure .073. This gauge can then be utilized as an Enfield FIELD .074 gauge. Since for the last 25 years I have the wrong gauge for my Mosins, I ordered a Mosin Firewerks Field gauge and it should measure .0765 not .074 like my Yankee FIELD coin gage does. I must have been sent the wrong gauge although it has 3 lines indicating a FIELD gauge :shhh: :doh: :doh: We shall see.
I will report its thickness measurement after I receive the Firewerks FIELD MOSIN gauge and confirm its actual size.

They also sell a 3 set and a 2 set with the field and no go at $40. In my crazy world, if war time specs go up to .084 allowing .020 headspace. Heck, I would be OK checking Enfields with the Mosin larger Field gauge of .0765. If they fail on that Field gauge, I'd leave it on the table. :lol:
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by Alan De Enfield »

72 usmc wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:01 pm
4(T)
LE

11 Nov 2010
#26
Dogface said:
Don't know what you mean about internet myth regarding SAAMI. Since most ammunition and cartridge cases encountered these days are SAAMI spec vs military, SAMMI headspace gauges are what one should use. SAAMI gauge may indicate a fiream unsafe to fire and unless using military brass with thicker web I'll go with the SAAMI gauge's indication every time even if it passes military tolerances.
SAAMI .303 "no go" is .067". The correct design headspace gauge to use is the Commonwealth "Field" of .074" (war use tolerance allowed up to 0.84"). Not surprising that some perfectly in-spec rifles "fail" a SAAMI gauge, as the correct minimum "go" is 0.64".

Thus SAAMI spec was wrong from the outset, and now some US manufacturers make cases with thin rims that would not pass a standard military quality check if that ammo were being procured today.

In Europe and most of the world, shoooters are best to ignore SAAMI and stick with the real headspace specs, as all surplus and most modern and recent production (HXP, PMP, Privi, Wolf, S&B, PPU, Kynoch, etc) use the normal military dimensions.

In US you have the silly situation that two specs of ammo are in circulation, but the majority of shooters don't understand the situation. This has spawned a vast internet headspace confusion, and a scramble for longer boltheads to "tighten up" headspace. The ironic thing is that most of these "headspace tighten-ers" are probably actually (a) making an in-spec rifle out of spec (most have no idea about fitting a bolthead correctly); (b) actually accelerating wear on their rifle by then having over-tight headspace when they come to use military-spec ammunition.

The other factor in this is that over-generous head space has no real effect other than possibly to shorten the life of poor quality (thin) brass. Ergo, its best to stick with the specification that was designed into the weapons system.
source: https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threa ... st-3493020


ENFIELD .303
British specifications NO GO .074, GO .064 military

SAAMI USA specifications Clymer gauges are Go .064, NO GO .067, FIELD .074


Many thanks for finding & posting that - says far better than I can the 'headspace situation' and differences between American civilian specifications & UK Military specifications.
Attachments
happy-smiley-face.png
"When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over many years,

the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic". Dresden James

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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by 72 usmc »

If you use a Clymer or Forster SAAMI bullet style or stubby gauge and your rifles passes you are good to go. They generally have tighter specs than military gauges. I guess it depends on the brand and age of the gauge :think: :think:

The Forster gauges for Enfield .303 British measure (from published data):
"Go" measures 0.064", "No-Go" measures 0.067", "Field" measures 0.070",

SAAMI USA specifications Clymer gauges are Go .064, NO GO .067, FIELD .074 ????
But I do not know...
I contacted Clymer for the same thing:

"Sir, We do not manufacture this .074 mil spec gauge…..if you purchase some .003” shim stock…or put a piece of scotch tape (scotch tape is .002” thick) on our saami NO GO, you would get out near your .074#.
Sincerely,
Staff
Interesting I found this old post that shows the Now Extinct Yankee gauges and the variety he produced. These worked great. Many of the old timers still have there sets.
YANKEE COIN GAUGES
Screen Shot 2020-06-29 at 11.00.28 AM.png
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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by S.B. »

I know you guys have a private conversation going on here in the thread I started but, I tentatively have a set of coin HSGs coming from Austria? I hope. Sorry to interrupt.
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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by 72 usmc »

Actually my Mosin 7.62x54R coin style Field gauge came in 3 days. The Firewerks FIELD gauge for a Mosin measures .076 and is marked with an F for Field and FW, on the other side it is marked 54R. So the Fireworks Mosin NO GO most likely measures a .073 or .074 as measured in the video.
Screen Shot 2020-06-29 at 2.49.13 PM.png
Screen Shot 2020-06-29 at 2.49.13 PM.png (206.49 KiB) Viewed 282 times

It is rather odd Firewerks does not make a .303 British Enfield set. Theres are a quality 410 stainless steel gauge the same diameter as the Yankee & Okie gauges of days past. I would think since no one in the US now makes a British set, that they would sells as well as the Mosin gauges.

Remember the set of 3 Mosin coin headspace gauges are made in USA and is basically a Mosin field gauge, and the Mosin NO GO acts as an Enfield FIELD gauge. Both rifles are covered with that set. Hence it sold fast after posting this information. :think:
Last edited by 72 usmc on Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by S.B. »

I checked Amazon, Brownells, and did a search but, no Firewerks or Yankee found?
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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by 72 usmc »

I checked Amazon, Brownells, and did a search but, no Firewerks or Yankee found?
Steve
Yankee and Okie are no longer sold. Both were 1 man operations and are deceased. You can only find used sets occasionally sold.
SEARCH under "Firewerks Mosin headspace gauge"
Firewerks makes only Mosin gauges sold by the company in USA and by Amazon dealers. But it takes awhile like a week to repost the item after it is sold. As of today they are sold out of the NO GO and #3 gauge set which was posted last week. The company web page lists all sets as sold out. This was not the case last week. They had the 3 set, GO & NO GO, but not the FIELD on the web page. I ordered my FIELD gauge on Amazon and it arrived in 3 days. So they either make them in batches or they too have stopped manufacture???? Last week the web page had sets for sale-now they post as sold out 2 July 2020. I bet after the 4th they will be restocked.
see links




NO GO sold out as of today
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Re: Where in America can I buy

Post by Tommy Atkins »

M-N FIELD is coincidentally the same as L-E FIELD @ 0.074"!
(this is not true for GO or NO-GO, so just get the "FIELD")
They're Out of Stock right now though.

https://www.amazon.com/Mosin-Nagant-Hea ... B0088AESY8

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