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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:40 am 
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Mil-Surp Shooter
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Hello, I have this rifle chambered in 308 Winchester and I am asking if I need to be careful shooting standard factory ammunition through it? Also would someone ID it for me. Thanks very much. Kurt
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:09 am 
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Looks like a 1916 Guardia Civil Spanish Mauser.

If I recall correctly, those were originally chambered for the 7x57 Mauser. SAAMI pressure for that is 46,000 CUP. .308 Win. develops 52,000 CUP. Probably not really a good idea to shoot your .308 in there.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:15 am 
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Mil-Surp Psychosis
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Kurt wrote:
Hello, I have this rifle chambered in 308 Winchester

its actually chambered in 7.62 nato, hence the cal 7.62 on the side. if this were a FR8 id say shoot .308 but since its a 1916 small ring action just stick to what its made/re-made for

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:55 pm 
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The 1916 you have is a small ring Mauser, with less safety features than its successor, the 98 large ring Mauser. It is best to stick with 7.62x51 NATO or similarly loaded ammo, which is perfectly safe for these rifles. I have one and have shot commercial .308, with no negative effects, but wouldn't do so on a regular basis. I would use .308 hunting loads on occasion if I needed to, but probably wouldn't have the need.

I look at it like shooting +P ammo in a pistol not designed for it. For example, I have a FN Hi-Power in 9x19 Luger that is not designed for +P. I do not hesitate to shoot a few rounds of +P in it on occasion, and would not hesitate to use hot loads in a concealed carry situation. I would not shoot very much in it because the frame and slide would be subjected to pounding beyond spec and would likely damage the handgun.


Last edited by wpflgun on Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:10 pm 
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Mil-Surp Shooter
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Thank you all for your replies. Based on the information offered I have done a bit of reaserch to determine how I would reload for this rifle. I have concluded the difference between the 308 Winchester and 7.62X51 are headspace and pressure. Reducing powder charge to lower pressure is no problem but I find only 308 winchester dies are available and therefore I assume each time I resize a case of either type, base on the fact each headspaces on the shoulder, I am creating an improperly headspaced case. So my question is this; What is the best way for me to proceed in reloading for this rifle? Must I fire form all my cases and then neck size them only? Can I use the same lower pressure powder charge for both military and civilian cases after fire forming and neck sizing? Thank you, Kurt


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:21 pm 
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Kurt wrote:
Thank you all for your replies. Based on the information offered I have done a bit of reaserch to determine how I would reload for this rifle. I have concluded the difference between the 308 Winchester and 7.62X51 are headspace and pressure. Reducing powder charge to lower pressure is no problem but I find only 308 winchester dies are available and therefore I assume each time I resize a case of either type, base on the fact each headspaces on the shoulder, I am creating an improperly headspaced case. So my question is this; What is the best way for me to proceed in reloading for this rifle? Must I fire form all my cases and then neck size them only? Can I use the same lower pressure powder charge for both military and civilian cases after fire forming and neck sizing? Thank you, Kurt


It depends on how tight the chamber fit is on your particular rifle. My 1916 Spanish chamber is very tight, easily within commercial SAAMI .308 spec. One of my 2a1 Ishapores in 7.62x51 barely passes NATO spec field gauge and fails SAAMI spec. Most military rifles are slightly looser by design to allow for chambering under extreme battlefield conditions, where dirt and debri can cause difficulty chambering otherwise. I would check the dimensions of a few fired cases to make that determination. If you have much case stretching, you would want to segregate your brass and neck size only.

Do keep in mind that the two rounds are dimmensionally identical externally, but the NATO spec brass is slightly thicker. Depending on which brass you use to reload, this makes a pressure difference. Loading to NATO round specs or to slightly reduced SAAMI spec will do the job.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:32 pm 
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You can load your rifle to very effective results, and still maintain low enough pressure, for an excellent hunting round. As a comparison, the 7.65x53 Argentine Mauser round is a close ballistic match to the 7.62 NATO/.308, but is low enough pressure to be safe in the older 1891 Mausers.

The bullet diameter is .311-.312 vs. .308, but case capacity is very similar. Some handloaders look at the 7.65x53 to get some guidelines as to loading the 7.62x51 NATO at low pressure.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:29 pm 
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I know a few people who shoot their 7.62 converted small ring Mausers with commercial .308 Win with no problems. But as they say, some days you eat bear, others the bear eats you.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:25 pm 
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Kurt wrote:
Hello, I have this rifle chambered in 308 Winchester and I am asking if I need to be careful shooting standard factory ammunition through it? Also would someone ID it for me. Thanks very much. Kurt
Image

First ,Nice rifle. Mine is just like yours and I have had it for a few years now. I have seen other examples over the years, they all seem to be well preserved. My favorite factory load is the fusion lite 170 gr s.p. (BY FEDERAL) at 2000 fps. As you can imagine, these are low pressure and quite mild but reportedly very effective on deer and hogs. It is also the most accurate of the 6 loads that I have tried. If you reload, go with bullets above 170gr in weight to start. Mine ,at least, seems to prefer 170s and 180s. These rifles should all have the gas ports in the bolt and receiver wall that will line up in battery. Let us know if yours does not. These are very handy and accurate rifles congratulations.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:50 am 
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Mil-Surp Museum Curator
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I've got a 1916 Spanish like yours. I've shot some 7.62x51 military in it with no problems. I have shot Federal 150 gr. .308 with no probs. I now handload to about .300 Savage pressure and have shot hundreds like this in it. Its killed about 20 deer with Hornady 150 gr. Spire Points.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:55 am 
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Thanks for all the help from everyone. I noticed the receiver is stamped 7.52 ?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:04 pm 
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For reasons unknown people believe that .308 winchester is loaded hotter than 7.62 NATO. This is not the case 7.62 NATO is loaded to 55,000 CUP (copper units of pressure) while .308 winchester is loaded to 52,000 Cup. It is perfectly safe to fire .308 winchester in ANY 7.62 NATO rifle. But be careful when you put 7.62 Nato in a .308 winchester rifle.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:17 am 
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Kurt wrote:
Thanks for all the help from everyone. I noticed the receiver is stamped 7.52 ?

This must be "7.62" with a blurred number "6" looking like a "5".


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:32 pm 
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Wazzadakka94, there is a lot of confusion regarding pressure standards between 7.62x51 NATO and .308 Winchester. Part of the problem is that military procurement standards are not specified the same way as SAAMI standards for commercial ammunition. And a lot of references use "PSI" in an obsolete fashion to reference what were CUP measurements. So the pressure comparisons lose meaning. The differences between .308 Winchester ammunition and 7.62x51 NATO ammunition are not very great, although some people assert that .308 Winchester is spec'd at a higher pressure standard.

That said, the small ring mausers are at the margin for the caliber and I recommend caution in firing them.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:31 pm 
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Here is some information I found about the differences in the measurements between the gauges for checking the head space.

308 Winchester (SAAMI) Gauges

GO - 1.6300"
NOGO - 1.6340"
FIELD - 1.6380"

Shop(Military) Gauges

GO - 1.6350"
NOGO - 1.6405"
FIELD - 1.6455"

As you can see the tolerance between military and .308 is .010 and .008 respectively. Considering Ackley recommends optimum headspace between .0035 and .0055, the military tolerances are kind of loose. As for reloading, I have read recommendations for taking the standard .308 specs, then lowering the powder by 10-15% as a starting point.


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