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MD stamped DP rifle @ $400

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72 usmc
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MD stamped DP rifle @ $400

#1 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:48 am

Yesterday i was at a small WI gun show and a goof had two SMLE rifles clearly stamped DP on the bolt and wood and both were priced at $400. I thought this nuts and offered $150 for the MD stamped SMLE. A nice weathered, beat, intact Australian SMLE. The guy actually sold this one for $400. It had some # like 2 or 3 then M.D. stamp on the receiver and some nice well worn stock cartouches on the stock. It looked nice, no paint bands, but DP stamped on most of the parts and wood. Why is a Drill purpose rifle worth $400. That is nuts. Or am I getting too old, people really pay these values?
Sorry I did not take any photos. :violin:
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Re: MD stamped DP rifle @ $400

#2 Post by Tommy Atkins » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:41 pm

Pardon my ignorance whats an "M.D. D.P." stamp"?
"DP" I understand, but what's "M.D."?

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Re: MD stamped DP rifle @ $400

#3 Post by indy1919a4 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:18 pm

Let me ask another question to all. OK so someone in an armory one decided to mark a rifle for Drill purpose.. WHy??...

Because they are unsafe to shoot???, sights not correct??, barrel shot out..???? Would they be dangerous to shoot??

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Re: MD stamped DP rifle @ $400

#4 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:51 pm

Sorry Tommy, I was not clear. Stamped on the right side above the serial number was 2 M. D. or 3 M. D. An Australian mark. This mark, and the presence of a stock disc still on a nice aged stock got my interest, heck I would have paid $200. But not $400. It was a Drill Purpose weapon.
The M. D. marking is an Australian military district marking that was on the receiver of this rifle I did not buy.
The military districts where the states and territories of Australia
1MD-Queensland
2MD- New South Wales
3MD- Victoria
4MD- South Australia
5MD- western Australia
6MD- tasmania
7MD- Northern Territory
The MDs were instituted after WW I, and the stamping" 2MD etc, and a "storemans number" were applied mostly to NON Lithgow rifles in the 1920s (mostly the BSA and Enfield made rifles sent out as repayment after WW I by Britain.) The "Command" structure was developed when Australia adopted the US "pentropic" division organisation concept just after the Korean War...what a shambles that was, it didn't suit Aussie conditions at all, and was soon discarded, especially when Vietnam was upon us.
But I remember that "Northern Command" (Queensland and part of the Northern Territory) was already well in existance when I joined the Army cadets in 1963, so a 1950s date of re-organisation was possible. The "commands" did overlap some of the old "MDs" and reduced their number as well. ( Northern, Eastern, Southern,Central and Western) with respective Headquarters at Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth.( all state capitals).

Tasmania was enclosed by Southern Command, out of Melbourne, and Darwin was covered by Northern Command out of Brisbane. The great central and western deserts were shared by Central and Western Commands.
Each Command area was headed by a Major-general.

regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics
Source: https://forums.gunboards.com/archive/in ... 61398.html


DP is Drill Purpose stamp. It was on the wood hand guards, the end of the rifle metal end, the bolt handle ball, top of receiver, and bottom strap of the trigger guard. This is what I remember, after I saw $400 as a price tag, :shock: :shock: :snooty: I put it down like it was a hot potato. I did not even check its headspace, bore was well worn, but OK. Firing pin was cut, bolt not welded. It was a miss match serial # on the bolt. No plug in the bore. The rifle had a nice patina and even at $200 would have been nice to hang on the wall. I do not fire DP rifles. But, it was really a nice well worn patina and neat old SMLE, just that it was priced too high. However, it sold later in the day. The other DP SMLE sat there, but it was not Australian marked.This second drill purpose SMLE was also priced at $400. Both had filthy stock discs that I could not make out.


DP rifle info: https://www.enfield-rifles.com/dp-stand ... c5491.html

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... activation

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/british ... -t764.html


This one did not have any new parts, it looked like a well used dog at the end of its life. Even the DP stamps were well worn and hard to see on the wood. The stock was a beauty, reeking of age, use, and patina.

I have no DP SMLE rifles, the closest I come is a Lightow green strip cadet, SMLE that headspaces on a field gauge and shoots fine. It has its recoil plates. There are no DP markings on these cadet rifles, just paint strip codes: see green, yellow, red codes.
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... thgow-SMLE


Pictures from the web:
DP.JPG
DP.JPG (54.06 KiB) Viewed 2251 times
IMG_2716.jpg
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Re: MD stamped DP rifle @ $400

#5 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:49 pm

I wonder if I screwed up and the rifle was worth that much cash or more??? I just remember DP Enfield were generally under $125 not to long ago???
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Re: MD stamped DP rifle @ $400

#6 Post by Tommy Atkins » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:34 pm

OK, got it, thanks.
DP wasn't necessarily "Broken", or worn out. Sure many of them were, but some were just old & there were many many more than needed particularly after WW2.
I'm sure some decent, but well used rifled were DP'd just to meet demand.

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Re: MD stamped DP rifle @ $400

#7 Post by Alan De Enfield » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:00 am

Tommy Atkins wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:34 pm
OK, got it, thanks.
DP wasn't necessarily "Broken", or worn out. Sure many of them were, but some were just old & there were many many more than needed particularly after WW2.
I'm sure some decent, but well used rifled were DP'd just to meet demand.
The problem is that neither you nor your gunsmith has the knowledge or equipment to identify which was an 'active' rifle that has been taken from stores 'to make up the numbers', or a 'scrap' rifle that has been in a fire and has been re-finished to DP specifications with a bit of bluing and a load of out of specification parts and put unto the DP Inventory.


Part of a presentation by Peter Laidler :

DP rifles in Britain

I have mentioned ‘Britain’ here but while I can’t include Canada, I can certainly include New Zealand and Australia with a degree of certainty plus India, whose Army liaison Officer at work ran his eyes over this paper for me. I have also mentioned DP too and in this respect, it isn’t meant to mean ‘DRILL’ in the parade square context, it is meant to indicate practicing your rifle ‘training drills’. And it’s not only rifles that were downgraded to DP either because in the days of the old ‘number’ radio sets, many of these were classified as DP sets too.

When I read about DP rifles in various places, I get the impression from the armchair experts that they are formulated by someone in the Armourers shop who decides that he’ll make/convert a few rifles in order to …………. NOTHING could be more dangerous nor further from the truth. One other thing too. Do not mix up DP rifles with the ‘higher’ standard (?) ‘sub-standard’ rifles that trickled out of service in the early 50’s. At least there were gauging limits for those!

When need exists for such rifles, the idea is put up to the Brigade Training Major for example and ‘staffed’ up the chain of command where a decision on the matter will be reached after due questioning of all concerned. I’ll take a fictitious unit training for an operational role in bongo-bongo land. The attrition rate of the weapons on the training team, due to the arduous nature of the training is critical is such that they need 20 rifles and 6 GPMG’s that can be used and abused. Authority is given for them to be issued these ‘extra’ DP classified weapons from Ordnance stockpiles. So, in the normal course of events, these are issued from training stocks.

But, let’s say the DP stocks aren’t available, then authority will be issued FROM THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE no less, for such weapons to be made available. Ordnance stores would then select from returned weapons that are deemed to be ‘ZF’ (that’s an Armourers technical explanation that I won’t go into) or BER (Beyond Economic Repair) to select the required amount for conversion to DP specification.

Now, if the required amount cannot be made from the ZF and BER stocks, then the remainder will simply be converted from standard war stocks. You will see from this, that while on the face of it, some 30 years down the line that your bright and shining No1 or No4 rifle LOOKS bright and shining, under the bright and shiny surface might be lurking a metallurgical nightmare ……………… Let me give you an example

During the 60’s and 70’s there was a constant need for No4 DP rifles, not only for cadet Forces but Parachute training too where the actual carrying of a rifle was more important than what the weapon was for. The reason for the attrition in this case was quite understandable. So a small but continuous rolling programme of ‘DP-ing’ was undertaken. Naturally many ZF/BER No4’s plus otherwise serviceable rifles were put into the programme plus a healthy dollop of L1A1 rifles too. Not only were these worn out rifles put into the pot, but we later learned, several thousand extensively fire damaged No4, L1A1 rifles and Bren guns that had been involved in a massive fire. These were aesthetically cleaned down, rebuilt to DP standard and profusely marked JUST so that there could be no doubt about their status. Oh, they looked very nice but what had gone on under the surface was a matter of conjecture. Would YOU fire one? I’ve been an Armourer for a couple of years and while I or your local gunsmith could examine one and give it a bright clean bill of health, would YOU trust it. NO, I wouldn’t either!

Let me give you another example too. NO dates here of course but ‘recently’ several hundred assorted weapons were recovered from a fire ravaged/damaged ship, sunk in low water (and later towed out to sea and scuttled). These were all quickly earmarked for scrap and eventually side tracked for DP/Training use. Like the other example, these were also cleaned, and refurbished, painted and ‘restored’ to aesthetically ‘serviceable’ condition. Oh, they looked good but within a couple of years, these had started to rust from under the welds, seams and joints.

And before I forget, let me remind you of something else too, JUST in case you’re tempted to buy one to use as spare parts. This is what the Armourers bible says. ‘……..it will be assembled as far as possible with components which are below the standard required for a service weapon’. And another thing you ought to remember. There were NO gauging limits for DP rifles. Mmmmmmm, food for thought there!

That’s about it. In my very limited experience as an Armourer and having overseen some of these DP programmes, I can tell you with certainty that they were all profusely marked DP so that their status was unambiguous. Agreed, some might be taken straight from stocks, but the rest ……………

Would YOU trust one? There certainly IS a place for a DP rifle in a collection as it forms a place in the lineage of the breed. But in the cupboard or rack or on the wall. NOT on the firing point.


And how does he know this? An Engineering Graduate, Capt. Peter Laidler is the senior Armourer in the British Army since serving his apprenticeship between January1963 and 66. He is currently the senior technical Officer at the Small Arms School at Warminster. And oversaw the introduction of the current L59 series of DP rifle. Or he just guessed. Pick what you think suits!
Resurrect a DP rifle from ANY nation......., no fear!
"When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over many years,

the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic". Dresden James

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Re: MD stamped DP rifle @ $400

#8 Post by Tommy Atkins » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:23 am

Exactly.
They should possibly have been stamped "DPO" for Drill Purposes ONLY!

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Re: MD stamped DP rifle @ $400

#9 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:25 pm

Anyone see or have an idea of what SMLE and No.4 Enfield DP rifles are going for at gun shows. Has anyone seen some at recent shows that can list approximate value they were asking? From what I remember they were never in great demand :shhh: :snooty: :think: :think:

What happen to the $100-200 value for the dog wall hangers?
I know the red & white painted US M1917 drill rifles seem to hover around $200-350. What about a SMLE DP? What about a No.4 DP ?
I have not see to many of these at shows in the last 6 years. More P14s or M1917, then also the US 1903 drill rifles. The last 1903 springfield drill rifle I saw at a gun show in last Nov. was priced at $150
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Re: MD stamped DP rifle @ $400

#10 Post by Greenmachine » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:19 pm

I would chalk it up to two things. 1 an unscrupulous or uninformed dealer. 2 probably a young buyer who didn't have any idea what DP stood for and could have been told all kinds of things from the dealer, see number 1. Ask your self why would a DP`d rifle be worth what you can get a good, complete intact and usually matching example for. I cant come up with any reasons for it .

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