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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:02 pm 
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Mil-Surp Shooter
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RenHoek wrote:
Certainly not normal but it did happen. A friend in Italy said he'll send me pics of Italian troops using various uniform items of other countries. I maintain it's a case of never say never. Ren



Uniform bits isn't in debate here either!

I can provide you pictures right now of Italians wearing Greek helmets as well as Czech helmets. After the fall of Tobruk when the Italians were running down the defeated British one Arial observer said that "It appeared as one British army was chasing another" because the Italians were wearing so much captured British uniform pieces.

I am speaking STRICTLY of non-issue/regulation rifle slings on regulation/issue rifles. I have never seen a picture of if it and if it did happen is it so insanely rare it shouldn't even enter into conversation because it simply wasn't done. You are talking about one in a million. I'd bet more Italian sailors were eaten by sharks than there were soliders using non-regulation rifle slings on their rifles.
Super duper uber rare is the point.

Captured weapons and captured uniform pieces are NOT THE QUESTION.

I do WW1 British reenacting as well as WW2 Italian... I just went back and grabbed my Carcano Cavalry Carbine and my No1 MkIII rifle and tried to put the Enfield sling on the Carcano.... The Enfield sling is way too thick and wide to go through the Carcano.

This debate is entirely silly and pictures of captured uniforms or weapons are not going to prove that odd ball freak slings were used on standard issue rifles.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:22 pm 
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Just my two cents here...

There's a huge difference between the Italian Army in 1940 (and even 1941) and the Italian Army in 1942-1943 (not talking about the Co-Belligerants). Just because there are tons of photos of Italian troops marching around in proper order and with issued equipment in 1940 doesn't mean anything.

By mid-1942, the Italian supply lines across the Med are scant and I think it is reasonable to assume that somewhere, someone put a Beretta sling on a Carcano. More importantly, there is a tendency with Italian WWII history to just look at the Bersaglieri and other "elite" units. Bersaglieri and Alpini units got priority for supplies and equipment, so they're probably not a good group to look at here. It's been awhile since I've been really "into" WWII Italy, but... all I'm certain of is that life sucks as a Italian conscript post mid-1942. Supplies are running thin, you're armor is outclassed, the enemy's armor is starting to out rate your anti-tank weapons, and in a few months you can look forward to the Germans shooting at you too. I expect having a correct sling on a correct rifle starts to become a pretty low priority.

My only other thing here is that there seems to be a sense of "No, the Italians did things right" going on here. I'll be the first to stand up for Italian performance in WWII. You can find examples of every army in WWII utilizing other nations weapons and equipment. I wouldn't take offense where none is intended.

Edit:

I kind of forgot the main point of the thread here...

Nice rifle!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:09 pm 
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Mil-Surp Psychosis
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It certainly is a nice one! Just for fun, here's another correct sling variety from Italy. Ren

Attachment:
AOI8.jpg
AOI8.jpg [ 41.33 KiB | Viewed 1877 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:09 am 
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Hunter_aka_Scotty wrote:
Now hang on just a second.

I am in NO WAY debating the use of Captured weapons by Italian soldiers. I can also provide thousands of pictures of Italians with captured British, Russian, given German and other weapons. That isn't the debate here.

The debate is using a non-issue sling with an issue rifle. I have never seen it done and even if you could provide a picture or two of slings that aren't regulation on regulation rifles out of MILLIONS of pictures of Italians doing what IS regulation, you can't by any stretch of the imagination claim that it is a normal practice. That's just false information.


debate here seems to be that you think you know more than Ren but the fact remains that you both have valid points, and neither of you were there. i've heard enough of this argument. "regulation" is a very relative term in wartime by the way.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:12 pm 
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Mil-Surp Collector
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...all that aside,
Ren, I took some photos of the marks below the woodline. Anything here you can decipher for me? You mentioned they are sometimes dated on the bottom of the receiver ring--do the markings below indicate a date? Is it a reach for me to assume the "27" centered in the characters indicates a 1927 receiver date (perhaps in September if the first character is a nine)? Are the other marks inspector marks, proof marks, or perhaps something to indicate a refurb? Thanks again for anything you can pass on...


Attachments:
Carcano marks.JPG
Carcano marks.JPG [ 2.4 MiB | Viewed 1593 times ]
Carcano marks (2).JPG
Carcano marks (2).JPG [ 2.37 MiB | Viewed 1593 times ]
Carcano marks (4).JPG
Carcano marks (4).JPG [ 2.38 MiB | Viewed 1593 times ]
Carcano marks (3).JPG
Carcano marks (3).JPG [ 2.43 MiB | Viewed 1593 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:35 pm 
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Well, I mentioned a range report earlier, so my sense of duty compels me to file my report...

I wish I could post up some impressive pics of a nice group, but I was too chagrined by my minute-of-man results at 50 yards to be seen taking a picture of it; In fact, I couldn't get down range fast enough to take the target down, as I just knew that the busybody a few lanes over was spying on my target with his spotting scope! :oops:

Perhaps one day I'll manage to take my time and record some decent groups, but for now I'm satisfied to have been able to crank out some rounds and put it through its paces. I've read that some shooters consider the PRVI bullets undersized, so maybe I can use that as an excuse for the shotgun-pattern group...(although my unscientific "bullet-test" pictured below had me thinking they don't seem undersized at all). Oh well, a bad day at the range beats a good day at the office...


Attachments:
Carcano ammo (2).JPG
Carcano ammo (2).JPG [ 2.38 MiB | Viewed 1335 times ]
Carcano ammo.JPG
Carcano ammo.JPG [ 2.12 MiB | Viewed 1335 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:15 am 
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Mil-Surp Psychosis
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I believe the 927 is an assembly code or armorer's mark. Only a few M91/28s were made in 1927. Ren

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