7.65 French Long.

Les Révolvers et Pistolets de Militaires Français, Mle.1873, 1892, 1935, Unique, Ruby, et alia
72 usmc
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

Here are views of the cartridges next to each other. The cuts to the Starline brass match up with the original cartridges. I speculate this is why they work in all pistols. I found no report of ejection problems at rapid fire, jams, or bottlenecked cases with Starline brass. If you do, I would look to the pistol's recoil spring or ejector. Or your load OAL and powder.
A comparison of the original steel case, .32 French long and the Steinel/Starline brass case ammunition.
IMG_2532.jpg
IMG_2533.jpg
IMG_2534.jpg
IMG_2535.jpg
IMG_2536.jpg

SWIHARTMARK is saying :
I just pushed the bullets deeper into their cases and now they all fit the chamber. It appears that the case rests on a shoulder inside the chamber, so case length seems to be critical, not overall length. At least, that is how I see it when I put the bullets into the chamber with me just holding the barrel and doing it manually.
So I measured the cartridge length on ten military cartridges and ten Steinel cartridges;
RESULTS:

French Military Steel cases
.777
.770
.775
.776
.780
.775
.778
.776
.774
.777
Average .7758 or round up to 0.776 inch for the case length. Military OAL is listed as 1.191 inch. Note most of my specimens were a wee bit longer than this and OAL differed by year & factory.

Steinel/ Starline brass cases
.771
.772
.774
.771
.772
.772
.773
.772
.773
.773
Average .7723 or round down to 0.772 inches for the case length. Steinel uses OAL of 1.185 inch.
Last edited by 72 usmc on Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

A collection of older posts about the .32 French long. I have noticed some of the ones from 5 years ago have vanished. Almost all of these links are information prior to the introduction of the Starline brass. No one machines converted brass anymore due to inaccurate cuts & specifications that cause jams. JUST use FACTORY Starline brass :clap: :dance:
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... -Long-Ammo

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... y-Starline

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... f=43&t=551

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... =67&t=3566

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... =43&t=1557

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... f=43&t=162

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... hat-primer

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... y-Starline

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... g-7-65-Mas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bt-6Ijhphw

https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=237242

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... -cartridge

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... 5mm-Longue

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... amp-W-Long

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/7-65 ... 42-500447/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/7-65 ... 42-487402/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/7-65 ... tom#bottom

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Relo ... 42-345685/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Best ... 42-499993/

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... nch-Longue

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... long-round

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... -1935S-yet
Last edited by 72 usmc on Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

I provided links to videos of the die set up in the loading procedure if you forgot :dance: :think: :clap:


For those that have never reloaded or use the ancient, single stage, RCBS press. THE PROCESS with Starline .32 French Brass using old French, steel case, rounds for a powder and bullet source. These all have have dead primers (ATS 1947 headstamp). French primers seem to decay and not fire after 30 years in French ammo.
The high tech, experienced reloaders will get a good laugh on this post :lol: :lol:
The steps & videos my help a few new to reloading. :think:


So I took down 25 French steel cases using the RCBS bullet puller in one press (RCBS JR.) and poured the powder and seated the original bullet into the new Starline brass using an OAL of 1.185. Some of the French bullets were out of spec. I used my second, old, manual, single stage press, a RCBS Jr with CH4D French.32 long special order dies to reload my new Starline brass.

First, I resized the new brass. For the boots :arrow: :arrow: here is a nice video how to set a sizing die in an old RCBS press: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czUq3uVSUuw
or see this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRXiI5TDUb0

Next, I set the primer into the brass. see this video with the ancient single stage press https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTBvzVZozW8


Then the bullet would not fit into the newly resized brass, so I belled out the case with the expanding die. see this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4ALRnpki2g
Update: belling out the brass so I could just set/start a bullet after it was resized cause tension issues with smaller size bullets. The pulled bullets ranged from .306 to .309. I only used the .308-.309 size. I found that I do not have to set the bullet as a start in the case. If belled even a wee bit, after fit by the press, the bullet could slide back into a case with the thumb test prior to a crimp. I found it better not to bell out the case. Just that it takes more care to hold the bullet over the case and carefully align it into the case. Then the die aligns the bullet perfectly inside the die as I push on the handle to press in the bullet. This takes more time and you got to be careful not to get your finger in the press, but it produces a much tighter bullet to case neck fit. They do not slide back into a case with a thumb test. I also crimp the bullet in a later step. This was encountered with .308/.309 bullets. If you use a .310/.312 you most likely will have to give a case a very slight bell to set larger .310 bullets.

Next, I pulled the bullet from a French steel case with my RCBS universal bullet puller. These are .309 inches. Well, not exactly due to a heavy military crimp. Size varied. Some bullets were bad. This powder and bullet was discarded. On the good cartridges, I poured the powder into the new Starline case and set the French bullet into the expanded case. see this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kccYUqCW2c


Now I am ready to seat and crimp the cartridge. I had to set up my seating & crimp die. See these videos,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJp9WZaHbjU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyRdqY9HUrg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY60qCMIktE
The crimp produced by the die is not as strong as the original French ammo's crimp. But the bullet does not push back into the newly reloaded Starline case.
Up date 4 April 2020
Some of the pulled French ammo bullets were undersized. I believe this to be from a heavy French crimp that distorted the bullet and resized it to .306. This did not taper crimp in the normal CH4D die. Size .309inch and upsize bullets work ok and do not push back into the case. However, the smaller size bullets .308-down to .306 fail to have good neck tension. Place the reloaded round on the table and you can push down hard and the bullet slips back into the case--not good. I now measure each pulled bullet and use only the ones that fall into the .308-.309 inch range. I have also modified a Lee collet style crimp pistol die for the 30 Luger to use to produce a better crimp on the .308 bullets. I had to cut it down to function and use washers to adjust where the crimp is applied. This is a .309inch collet that will apply a heavy crimp even to a .306 bullet. Luger case length is CL.850 inch while Starline.32 French long brass CL is approximately .772 inch, military cases at .776 inch. So some cutting at the bottom is required to fit/function. If you remove too much then adjust with washers if using the 30 luger modified Lee crimp die. This neck tension problem can be avoided by using .309-.311 size bullets in the taper crimp found in the RCBS or CH4D seating die. I have not used the special order Lee .32 French Long die set and I am not sure what the die set up is for when it comes to bullet crimping range. If you use a .308 Tok bullet you can encounter neck tension issues. I have not used the or tried the Hornady XTP .309 90grain or the Berry .32ACP .312 bullets. If purchasing bullets, these are a most likely a better choice to avoid neck tension problems.
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=3955

Then, as I did each cartridge, I measured the OAL to be sure it was correct for each cartridge as it came off the press. see video if needed;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBKvxZL6jBo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNjiX-OKiWQ

Results: I got 25 reloaded cases with original French powder and bullets to compare to my Steinel ammunition. We shall see the results when it actually stops snowing and is somewhat warm. In theory they should go bang- I was wondering if I should use 1.185 or 1.180 inch for OAL . I will fit each into a barrel tomorrow.

Finished cartridges
IMG_2540.jpg
IMG_2541.jpg


The old French cases had poor quality control on bullets. I show these deformed bullets in a picture below. (not used) I will make dummy rounds with these garbage bullets and left over cases. :clap:
IMG_2539.jpg
IMG_2538.jpg


The old dogs I had since the 1960s, RCBS JR presses :clap:
IMG_2542.jpg
Last edited by 72 usmc on Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:09 am, edited 14 times in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

I got my 1935 S barrel out and fit the unprimed, unloaded, starling brass, the original French steel case ammo, the Steinel factory ammo, and my reloaded Starline brass with 1.180 OAL and original French bullet tips with its powder.
So here are 3 views of unloaded, unprimed Starline cases pulled out of the bag ( not resized)
IMG_2569. unprimed starline 1.jpg
IMG_2570 unprimed starline 2.jpg
IMG_2571 unprimed starline 3 .jpg
Last edited by 72 usmc on Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

Here are the views of the French .32 long steel case, original ammunition's fit.
IMG_2561 steel 1.jpg
IMG_2562 steel 2.jpg
IMG_2563 steel 3.jpg
IMG_2564 steel 4.jpg
IMG_2555 steel 5 .jpg
Last edited by 72 usmc on Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

Here are views of the factory Steinel ammunition's fit.
IMG_2558 steinel 1.jpg
IMG_2559  steinel 2.jpg
IMG_2565.steinel 4.jpg
IMG_2566 steinel 5.jpg
Last edited by 72 usmc on Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

Here are Fit views of my reloaded Starline cartridges using the original pulled French bullets & powder with an OAL of 1.185 inch. Looks a little high??. I used CH4D special order French .32 Long dies. Cases were resized prior to priming with CCI small pistol primers.
IMG_2556 reloaded 1.jpg
IMG_2557 reloaded 2.jpg
IMG_2560 (reloadded 3 .jpg
IMG_2567 reloaded 4 .jpg
IMG_2570 reloaded 5.jpg
Last edited by 72 usmc on Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

Here are Fit views of my reloaded Starline cartridges using the original pulled French bullets & powder with an OAL of 1.180 inch. Looks a little Better of a fit, more like the Steinel cartridges. OAL best, seems to be 1.180 inch. Moral of the store, try a fit with the barrels :lol:
:doh: :think:
While both might fire fine, I just went a wee bit shorter. lf it gets to 45 degrees, I may try to shoot off some and see the results?????
IMG_2582.1.180  1.jpg
IMG_2581 1.180   2.jpg
IMG_2576.1.180   3.jpg
IMG_2578 1.180  4.jpg
IMG_25801.180   5.jpg
Last edited by 72 usmc on Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

Here is a very interesting study of original French .32 long steel cartridges that were taken down as a sample which I found on Gunboards that was posted by author NoTimeLikeNow . I put this Quote into a google document so all can view just this one post. Just too much great information like this just vanishes and I wanted an electronic copy of this work. I could not copy it as a direct quote due to pictures & charts not showing up to view. The five sample headstamps and dates in order of appearance are:
ATS 1948
VE 1946
VE FY 1 50 (1950)
ATS 1946
ATS 1947
Cartridge Table order across the bottom is:
DK Blue dot ATS 1948, Brown dot VE 1946, Green dot VE FY 1 50 (1950), Purple dot ATS 1946, Lt Blue dot ATS 1947

Measurements in inches are along the right side. The Green line is nominal, Yellow line is minimum, and the red line is the maximum on the charts.
The author measured the following in tables 1-7
Table 1 Steel projectile diameter
Table 2 Mouth diameter
Table 3 Base diameter
Table 4 Extraction groove dia.
Table 5 Rim diameter
Table 6 OAL
Table 7 Case length
THIS IS A FANTASTIC LINK TO .32 FRENCH LONG ammunition and powder types:
Here is the original primary source of No Time Like Now's post found near the bottom of page 1:
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... -65-Longue

Also see page 2 for his powder experiments & charts for reloading, some great stuff. This entire post is worth a PDF download to save the info.

In case the source goes down, Here is also a google document view of the information:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yZs ... sp=sharing

I noticed in both links a non member viewer can not enlarge the charts.
For those that can not enlarge the 7 tables, here are clear screen shots from the source (click on each one and they enlarge to view) :
Many thanks to the author- NoTimeLikeNow & gun boards. This is some great information to share about French pistol ammunition. These are screen shots of NoTimeLikeNow's original tables. Consider them as Quotes with proper credit given and a job well done Mr Science. :clap:

Table 1 Steel projectile diameter
Screen Shot table 1  .png
Table 2 Mouth diameter
Screen Shot  table 2 .png
Table 3 Base diameter
Screen Shot  table 3.png
Table 4 Extraction groove dia.
Screen Shot  table 4 .png
Table 5 Rim diameter
Screen Shot table 5   .png
Last edited by 72 usmc on Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:33 pm, edited 16 times in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

Table 6 Overall case length ( OAL )
Screen Shot table 6.png
Table 7 Case length
Screen Shot  table 7 .png
Last edited by 72 usmc on Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

A quote from the gun boards link shown above.
Tuna
Senior Member

Are you using the shell holder that comes with the Lee 7.65x20 die set? It's a perfect fit with the Starline brass. I have been using the Hornady .309 diameter XTP 90 gr. with 3.5 to 3.8 grs of Unique. Accuracy is acceptable and function of the two pistols I have has been 100%.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by Zeliard »

Interested in reading your range report. :)
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

This post has been restored and a link to the old post New .32 French Long has been added on page 1. 12 June 2020 Also the entire 5 pages saved on the Wayback today.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

I finally got out to the range with four different 1935 French pistols in order to fire the Steinel 7.62 French long ammunition that uses the new Starline brass and my reloads using New Starline brass and the pulled powder and bullet from steel case, original French long ammo.
The Steinel factory ammunition fired and ejected in all four pistols. No problems other than the empty Starline cases thrown into the next field. Definitely need a tarp to relocate the brass cases. I did not find the ammunition that I fired as stout as some suggest. I am use to 45 auto and Tokarevs, the .32 Steinel French Long recoil is no where near as stout. Definitely, much weaker of a kick than a Tokarev. I have not shot my .32 auto for some time, but if I had to guess it's more like a .32 acp for feel. I did shoot my Tokarev the same day, the .32 French long is weak in comparison- not stout at all.

First, I fired 5 Steinel rounds; then I fired a clip of my reloads. They all fired and felt the same. No bottle necks or jams with my reloads containing the original powder and bullet in the new Starline brass. I thought that odd, so I loaded a clip with alternating ammunition: Steinel, reload, Steinel, reload....
I fired off that clip and could not feel or tell the difference in recoil between the two different ammunitions. Both functioned fine, no jams, and the bullets hit a one foot square pice of paper at 20 yards. Using the original factory powder and bullet in the new Starline .32 French Long brass works perfect.

However, I had two noticeably weak rounds that I reloaded. These did not get crimped with my new Lee crimp die. I felt a noticeable difference power a wee bit weaker. So it is best to have a decent crimp if you are using .306- .307 bullets. The factory, CH4D special order die, just does not give the undersize bullet a tight crimp if your bullet is around .306. The Lee modified .30 Luger crimp die works wonders. It provides a tight crimp even to .306 bullets. I now crimp all my .32 French Long reloads with it. Other problems while taking down the French ammo include two concerns: I encountered a few pulled rounds with clumped powder-- I did not use this powder. I also encountered some odd bullets with white flaking lead,( generally in clumped powder rounds) or the lead hanging out the back of the bullet-- these were also not used. I also have to measure the pulled bullets because a few are crimped too tight reducing the size to .306 rather than the normal size of .308/.309. But I got 900 rounds of original French Long ammo all with dead primers, (Not one goes bang) that I want to use for components. I just have to use some caution at selecting.

Conclusion
So RESULTS :arrow: :D :dance:
Steinel ammo is #1.
Using Starline brass also #1.
Pulled components work if crimped and I could not tell the different types when firing.
Steinel ammo with Starline brass functions perfect and I would say is not as stout as reported by some. It is less stout than normal tokarev ammunition. While I did not shoot my Luger today to make an adequate comparison, I'd say it's about as stout as a Luger from memory. Steinel ammo is tops in my book. Likewise, my Starline brass lot is also tops .

Anyone with a French 1935 A or S pistol can now shoot it easily with Steinel ammo. Steinel uses Starline brass, so it can be saved and reloaded if you want. Just remember those French 1935 pistols throw the brass into the next field. Expect a good number of lost cases. If you reload, forget modifying brass, use Starline brass. If the pistol does not work, your powder is off or the pistol is defective. So far just about everyone reports that both the brass and Steinel ammo work. Not so with Old Wester Scrounger or Buffalo Arms modified garbage brass.

Fantastic, nice, thin profile pistols when they work.
Last edited by 72 usmc on Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

My reloads used an OAL of 1.180, Starline Brass case, with the powder and bullet salvaged/pulled from original steel case .32 French long ammunition.
They were reloaded in a CH4D French long die, but crimped in a modified, cut down, Lee .30 Luger crimp die. They work and function fine.

Link to crimp problems viewtopic.php?f=65&t=3955
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