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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:53 am 
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Mil-Surp Owner
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The M1 I recently acquired has an interesting stamp. While all the other parts are marked SA# (which would leave me to beleive that i have a springfield barrel, bolt, op rod, et cetera and thus an armory frankenstein) the receiver is marked as follows.

NAT'L ORD. INC.
S. EL MONTE, CA.
U.S. RIFLE
CAL. 30 M1
###

I ask only because this is an oddity to me. While I have seen many manufactures of M1 this is the only NAT'l ORD marked weapon I have come across in my travels. It is even stranger to me that I have had some difficulty in locating information about this manufacturer. While there are a few references on the net about NAT'L ORD. M1 carbines and even fewer mentions of 1903 type rifles there are none on point.

Any information would be most appreciated, and while I have become as attached to this rifle as I am to any of my other limbs, a value estimate would be appreciated as well purely to satisfy my curiosity.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 1:09 am 
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National Ordnance was a company in the Los Angeles area that assembled rifles using cast receivers and GI parts. They did all of the rifles you listed, plus M1A's too. The value on your M1 would be in the $300-$400 range, roughly half what a real M1 would bring.

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 8:47 am 
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whatshisface11 wrote:
The M1 I recently acquired has an interesting stamp. While all the other parts are marked SA# (which would leave me to beleive that i have a springfield barrel, bolt, op rod, et cetera and thus an armory frankenstein) the receiver is marked as follows.

NAT'L ORD. INC.
S. EL MONTE, CA.
U.S. RIFLE
CAL. 30 M1
###


You have a commercial rifle made up of a cast receiver (NOT USGI) assembled together with surplus GI parts. I have never seen a "National Ordnance Inc." M1, but have heard that quality of their receivers was very spotty at best. A certain de-value mark for certain. Worth maybe the cost of a parts kit.... $300-$350.

If it shoots and functions decent.... be very happy.

Now, if your receiver was marked "Fed-Ord Inc.".... I'd have to recommend that you RUN very far and fast away from it. Don't know if there is any connection between Fed-Ord and Nat'l Ord. For your sake I hope not.

I've only seen one Fed-Ord built M1, owned by an older gent who showed up with it at our local CMP club about 4-5 years back. He was having trouble with it and asked me for help. This receiver was the WORST POS I have ever laid eyes on in my life. It looked like an 8th grade shop casting project that got an "F". It was VISIBLY out of spec in several areas. I could not make it function normally. I advised the old gent to NEVER attempt to fire a round through that rifle and have it rebuilt on a GI receiver. He did and later was very happy with the rifle.

Best regards,
Swampy

Garands forever
2007 NRA Missouri State 600 yard Service Rifle Champion.... with an M1

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 3:54 pm 
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Thank you much for the information. I had figured the receiver was probably commercial. As I had mentioned, the rifle has become like a limb, so the dollar value isn't incrediably important to me. I will keep my eyes on the function, but is there anything specific i should be watching for? I haven't had any problems save for a few failure to feed jams. I was firing seventies vintage korean M2 ball that was stored in the clips. They were a little crunchy. Didn't think anything of it. Do these receivers have any specific nasty tendencies? I haven't noticed any catastrophic failures, split casings, or even failures to fire.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:19 am 
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I had a cast receiver Garand (a Century receiver). Always had intermittent failures, mainly failing to feed but occasionally to extract as well. I swapped in a G.I. receiver and it has worked flawlessly ever since. I'm glad I did it.



Matt

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:40 am 
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we own a M1 that is stamped like yours from National Ordinance. it has a receiver that is stamped BM59 on it.
Its not a real BM59 - it shoots semi-auto 308. It jams a lot. not highest quality- gets a lot of looks however, some call it a tanker garand.?
we looked everywhere for info on National Ordinance - most we found was not favorable. seems they put a lot of guns together from mixed matched parts.
Heres a pic of it.

Image


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:54 am 
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Honestly, I have no idea what one would call that rifle. It seems to be some sort of M1A or M14 varient? I'm not completely up to speed on those particular models. Respectable weapon though. What sort of jam problems are you having?


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:32 pm 
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after a round or two it shoots the bolt and operating rod stay shut and will not reopen or cycle. The last time it happened I was at a range with a RSO who was upset that I could not "open the action" before the range timed out. I could pull the mag but the spent round was stuck. they like all the actions open.
then a seasoned vet came over and said "let me show you how to clear that action young man" (i love it)
He put the operating slide handle against the wooden pole and pushed it open...i have not fired it since. I dont think I have the strength that he had to do it again..


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:50 pm 
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I have had a similar jam. Also at the range. Fortunately the rangemaster was a korean war vet. Carried a Garand for two years. My op-rod had disengaged from the bolt, the gas pressure forced the op-rod back without the bolt, which had wedged in the receiver. After a long fight I got the spent casing out and called it a day. I found that smoothing ball on the bolt, where it fits into the socket on the receiver, with some steel wool helped out with it, as did the proper grease on the operating rod channel on the receiver. Havent had a problem with it in the last 300 rounds or so. Of course, dealing with a malfunctioning firearm is a near text-book case where being conservative and erring on the side of safety is preferable. Have you spoken to a gunsmith?


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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:08 pm 
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NATIONAL ORDNANCE was one of the predecessors of Fed Ord, whose various atrocities include erroneously remilitarized, welded receivers (no, they are NOT "rewelds"!), a lot of mis-assembled equipment, including Garands, and some rather decent stuff. One can generally use as a rule of thumb: The less Fed Ord or NATIONAL ORDNANCE had to do with manufacturing anything, the more likely it is to work.

The BM.59 variant shown here is often referred to as a BM.59E, and they are (or were) a handy way to get 20 rounds in a detachable magazine through an M1. These are generally 7.62x51mm. NATO, although there was an M1E "spinoff" which used the fragile USGI B.A.R. magazine, and those were GUARANTEED trouble.

Some of their receivers use USGI cut fronts, welded--and often very sloppily--to a rear casting which was out of specification from the get-go. Cast M1's, of course, inherently CANNOT be to specification. One weird variant for which I have no explanation but was shown recently was an Italian receiver and of VERY HIGH QUALITY, bearing a similarly substandard quality logo on the rear receiver "horseshoe", and it, of course, was perfect. A friend suggested perhaps these were some of the "missing" Breda and/or Beretta forgings (NO, NOT castings, FORGINGS!!!) that somehow found their way to the U.S. back in the 50's or 60's.

Check the right front "lug" or "data panel", the information, if there, might be interesting!

Jim Thompson


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:00 am 
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This is not a Tanker Garand, but a variation of the M1A1 (M-14) The Garand has no removable magazine, but an eight round enbloc clip. Correct about Nat Ord, may or may not a safe receiver. Even more dangerous is the many demilled and cut in two Garand receivers. The receiver's two halves are put into a jig and welded back together. Bad news, and there are a bunch out there! Believe it or not, I have seen ceremonial Garands (unaltered) blow the heal of the receiver out the back using blank cartridges of a certain brand. Bolt and op rod intact, but a couple of rounds of blanks were also set off while in the enbloc clip?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:06 am 
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Oops I didn't see the above message on Fed Ord. They did indeed build my Garand Tanker. However, I supplied the rifle with a bad barrel, they supplied the new shorter barrel, and the shortened op rod. No markings on the barrel so it is possible an after market barrel. The rifle was also reparkerized.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:16 pm 
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I would get a USGI receiver from the CMP sand build the parts that you have into a legit USGI M1. I would then use the old receiver as a paperweight.


I dont want to sound gruff but you will not beat a forged USGI receiver.

Mike

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