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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:02 pm 
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Mil-Surp Museum Curator
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Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:38 pm
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Hello all, let me just start out by saying that although Im not new to the forum, I am new to the M1 Garand! With that said my question is this:

I just recently, and when I say recently I mean I mailed my payment in for it today, purchased a Springfield Armory M1 Garand in the 5.4 mil serial number range on auction. The vast majority of the parts are SA, with a couple of other parts in there, not real concerned about all SA parts, and it has the original 10-54 barrel on it.

The auction stated that it had a muzzle wear of 2, and throat erosion of 5. Now again Im new to the M1's, been lusting after one and saving for one ever since I started collecting! =P~ Are these numbers acceptable? What is the difference between muzzle wear and throat erosion? Is it still safe to shoot? I felt that it was, and figured if the barrel was shot out a replacement shouldnt be to hard or expensive to find. I only paid 650 for it, so I think I got a good deal, or did I?

Again my question is about the muzzle wear and throat erosion. Can someone explain the meaning of those to me? As usual thanks in advance for any and all replies!

Cant wait to get it in my grubby little hands! This is kind of the pinnacle of my collection(can you tell Im excited, so please no bad news :( J/K)! Thanks again!

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"If somebodys going to be wrong, let it be somebody else"

"Some people say I have A.D.D., Oh look a squirrel!"

"There's battle lines being drawn, nobodys right if everybodys wrong"
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:15 am 
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Benefactor
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Location: Sacramento Area, California
Age: 30
Muzzle wear is the amount of wear the inside of the muzzle has seen. 2 is just fine for that.

Throat erosion is the amount of wear from the chamber side of the barrel. It is almost always more than muzzle wear. They are abbreviated as MW and TE, and a TE of 5 is on the high side, but not too much to worry about, IMO.

I can't say it is or isn't safe to shoot, but those numbers would not hinder it's safety at all.

I forget the exact measurements, but I seem to remember that each number is .001 inches. Therefore, MW of 2 would take the bore .002" out of spec.

Welcome to the club. We want pics. I would say that you did good to get a functioning Garand for $650. If it looks good and shoots well and has anything close to correct parts, you stole it.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:49 am 
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Mil-Surp Shooter
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Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:31 pm
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Age: 39
There is a debate as to what wears the muzzle out: Poor cleaning technique versus amount of rounds fired. Probably both as well as other factors such as the use of corrosive ammunition, how fast the rounds were ran through the barrel while shooting, the predisposition of a particular barrel to fail earlier than others, etc... But I think it is accepted that you typically wear the throat about .001 for every 1,000 rounds fired. So in your rifle's case, approximately 5,000 rounds have been fired through it - that is, if it started out measuring 0 when the barrel was new. It probably didn't measure a true zero though.


From Scott Duff's website:

A Comment on Throat Erosion from Scott Duff

It has come to my attention from discussions with many M1 Garand owners that a misunderstanding of an acceptable versus an unacceptable Throat Erosion (TE) reading exists. A note of clarification is in order. When discussing serviceability specifications of U.S. Martial Arms, it is best to review the primary source, the U.S. Army Ordnance Corps documents from when the M1 rifle was the issue rifle to front-line troops. I have in my files TB ORD 587 dated 20 December 1954 entitled Field Inspection and Serviceability Standards for Small Arms Material. A chart on page four outlines the serviceability specifications for the M1, M1C, and M1D rifles “To Accompany Troops Overseas.” The specification given for “Breech Bore Rejection” is “Over 0.306” or a TE reading of 6 on a gage. No specification is given for muzzle wear. If combat troops in the 1950s were issued rifles with a TE of 6 or under, then the same is good enough for a rifle in my collection. I would not go to the John C. Garand Match at Camp Perry with a rifle with a TE of 6, but for general collecting, in my opinion, it matters little.

This is also a good time to note that based upon my observations the TE of a new production SA barrel during World War II ran anywhere from approximately 1.0 to 3.5. Pre World War II SA barrels were usually in the 0.0 to 1.0 range. Winchester barrels were generally in the -1.0 to 2.0 range, but I have seen new WRA barrels with higher and lower readings. An expanded version of this including information on post WII barrels will be published in a future issue of the Garand Collectors Association Journal (GCA). If you are not a member of the GCA and would like to join (as an M1 owner you really should be a member just as a gun owner you should be an NRA member) you may download a membership application from the GCA website at www.TheGCA.org.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:41 pm 
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Mil-Surp Museum Curator
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Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:38 pm
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
Age: 37
Thanks for the replies that helped alot! Heres a link to the auction I won it on, maybe you guys can tell me a little more about it after seeing it.

http://www.auctionarms.com/Closed/Displ ... =8716293.0

_________________
"If somebodys going to be wrong, let it be somebody else"

"Some people say I have A.D.D., Oh look a squirrel!"

"There's battle lines being drawn, nobodys right if everybodys wrong"
Buffalo Springfield


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:44 pm 
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Mil-Surp Owner
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Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:29 pm
Posts: 55
From the information on the auction site, your rifle is a typical post war mix-master.
Looks like it has the original barrel for the serial number range, has some WWII parts i.e. bolt, trigger housing hammer etc, op rod is of the proper era etc.

Like the others have said the TE and MW are ok. The relationship between the two are sometimes misleading to usage.

I belong to a CMP affiliated club and maintain the 10 Garands we own. WE have one with a TE of 8 and MW of 2.5. It amazes me with the constant 2.5-3 inch groups it can shoot at 100yds. Common sence would say it was shot a lot but not cleaned a lot, at least from the muzzel end.

As a small time collector builder of Garands (I have around 20 presently) I believe we sometimes put too much emphasis on the TE/MW numbers. Some of my best shooters have a MW of around 4 and TE averages of 4.5. My experience is that you can't tell much until you sight in a gun and then until you shot at least 50 rounds.

Good luck with your Garand. HTH's


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:39 pm 
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Mil-Surp Owner
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Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:26 pm
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I agree 100 percent. I put the dang gauge in the drawer and enjoy my M1's and try not to obsess about the numbers anymore. Some of my higher TE/ME WWII vets are fantastic range guns and even see a Garand match here and there.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:20 pm 
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Mil-Surp Owner
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Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:03 pm
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Age: 52
I agree about fussing about gauges on and such, I love to shoot the Garand!! This months Rifleman has it as number 1 military rifle, and I agree on hundred and ten percent!! Enjoy the rifle, it's a hoot to shoot!! p.s. bring lots of ammo...ha ha...


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