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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:57 am 
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So, having just received my C&R and reading over the AFT's list of regulations/ eligible weapons--I have a basic question: is a sporterized military rifle eligible for C&R?

I understand military rifles have to be "original" and manufactured prior to 1946 (with listed exceptions, and it appears original actions and barreled actions from what is often offered for sale). However it also states "Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date." Sporterizing military rifles was very popular between the wars and into the 1960 (I sporterized a few in the 80's--but even at that time I was often told it was cheaper to buy a gun "off the rack").

Hypothetical: a Winchester M1917 re-chambered to 300 H&H Mag, drilled and taped for scope, floor plate adjusted and mag/bolt face opened for the cartridge (and obviously a new stock)--which is the gem I'm currently hunting for (after my 256 Newton, my Grand, and the list goes on...:-) That's pretty extensive changes--but if performed by a gunsmith in 1952, is it C&R?

I’ve even seen it discussed that M48 in original wood is fine, yet putting it in a plastic stock renders it no longer a C&R.

I would imagine the trouble here is in being able to prove exactly when a gun was "sporterized."

Or did I completely miss something when i was reading over the regulations?

Thanks,

Ronn

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:14 pm 
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ronn38 wrote:
Hypothetical: a Winchester M1917 re-chambered to 300 H&H Mag, drilled and taped for scope, floor plate adjusted and mag/bolt face opened for the cartridge (and obviously a new stock)--which is the gem I'm currently hunting for (after my 256 Newton, my Grand, and the list goes on...:-) That's pretty extensive changes--but if performed by a gunsmith in 1952, is it C&R?

I’ve even seen it discussed that M48 in original wood is fine, yet putting it in a plastic stock renders it no longer a C&R.


As long as the barrel and reciever have not been modified, rifles can still be classified as C&R. If anything has been cut to improve performance, welded, barrel unscrewed, replaced or unpinned from the original barreled reciever, then it is no longer C&R. It can be the biggest mall ninja rifle with 20 lbs of junk on it and still be C&R classified as long as the original barrel and reciever have not been modified. Thus, in your post:

- The 1917 is not C&R, since the barrel has been changed.
- The M48 is ok, and still C&R

The addition of different stocks, added scopes, higher cap mags, bent bolts, recoil buffers, muzzle brakes, springs and park jobs do not remove it from C&R status. However, anything that changes the rate of fire (mags), or configuration (folding stocks) must now conform to a whole new animal.... 922r. Which is a whole new thread.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:18 pm 
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I see, so C&R status is applied primarily to the receiver or barreled receiver (with some caveats for functional alterations as you mentioned). And drilling/tapping, bending the bolt handle, changing sights, etc. is OK, but re-chambering, cutting the barrel, etc alters the "original" configuration of the barreled receiver.

I know we’re about to start splitting hares here, but what about filing of charger bridges and things of that nature (the bullying they do toM17 ears)—will that type of work the C&R status, or are those modification cosmetic, rather than changing the original Function of the receiver, and therefore acceptable?

Thanks for the input, it really helps!

Ronn

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:22 pm 
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The definition for curio or relic (“C & R”) firearms found in 27 C.F.R. § 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.
It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts,
non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable—for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:28 pm 
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Orlando has it correct. With respect, I do not agree with Ozzman's descriptions as they lead to incorrect conclusions. The OP's described rifle is not C&R eligible.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:08 pm 
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Orlando, you are correct in your post, but I have to dissagree with you guys here on one item.. Stocks

-Putting a synthetic stock on a M48 does not take it out of C&R status. :|

You guys are saying that vendors that sell rifles in plastic/synthetic stocks are in violation of the law.. I guess the Mosin Nagants SOG sold to individuals a few months back in synthetic stocks are not C&R then right? Yet they were.. Barreled receivers that have not been modified are purchased under C&R status from Century, and others here... Even the U-Fixem's are not in their original config, yet are still classified as C&R.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:50 pm 
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viewtopic.php?f=6&t=73670&p=528136&hilit=license#p528136

...a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable—for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item." Source: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/1972-2007/faq.pdf


Last edited by Black Wolf on Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:53 pm 
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How can a barreled receiver be C&R ?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:28 pm 
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ronn38 wrote:
I understand military rifles have to be "original" and manufactured prior to 1946 (with listed exceptions, and it appears original actions and barreled actions from what is often offered for sale). However it also states "Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date."


BATF has clarified that, "Firearms automatically attain curio or relic (C&R) status when they are 50 years old. Source: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm, 27 CFR 478.11

It states:
"Firearms automatically attain curio or relic (C&R) status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. However, if your C&R item is regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) and you desire removal from the provisions of the NFA, you must submit the firearm to the Firearms Technology Branch for evaluation and a formal classification."

478.11 states:
Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

Firearms that do not meet item (a) or (b) above, can be declared C&R by BATF and those are the ones added to the on-going C&R lists noted here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

See my above post regarding what constitutes "original configuration".


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:31 pm 
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OZZMAN
You need to read the regs alittle more carefully. Yes it can be alittle overwhelming at times but the facts are there.


Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (revised September 2005, page 160 about half way down the center column.

"ATF has recognized only complete assembled firearms as curios or relics. ATF's classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration.

Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics by ATF since they are not of special interest or value as collector' items. Specifically, they do not meet the definition of curio or relic in 27 CFR 478.11 as firearms of special interest to collectors by reason of a quality other than is ordinarily associated with sporting or offensive or defensive weapons."


Also, this is a direct copy right from the ATF "questin and answer" page stating that changing from a original wood stock to a plastic stock makes a firearm no longer C&R eligeable.
I'm not just making this stuff up!


What modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification?
The definition for curio or relic (“C & R”) firearms found in 27 C.F.R. § 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.
It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts,
non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable—for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:12 pm 
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Orlando wrote:
OZZMAN

Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (revised September 2005, page 160 about half way down the center column.


Actually, it's page 159.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:42 pm 
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Very enlightening gentleman, thank you. I thought I had read the regulations, but you're quoting from sources I've not encountered. I looked for my info here http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm. Where am I not looking that I need to be?

Thanks,

Ronn

SO, after all this discussion, it would appear the 300 H&H I originally mentioned is not C&R as a military C&R, but could be if the gunsmith who made it did so 50 or more years ago--a bit of a challenge that might be.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:50 pm 
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Thats just a list of Curio and Relics firearms. If you have your C&R License you would have gotten books with the rules and laws. Thats where this info is coming from as stated in my post.
Dont know if it is on the ATF website or not


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:54 pm 
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Here ya go http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2 ... /index.htm


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:25 pm 
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Ok, after some research I stand corrected #-o .. You are right Orlando, and I plea no contest here. I have read through the rule books and the link that Blackwolf has posted as well, and yes it written there in plain black ink.

Now, as a confused collector, tell me this:

- If you receive the SOG flier (I bet we all do), look up the Mosin Nagant page. Why would they intentionally sell C&R holders a Sporter Mosin Nagant to the public and list it as C&R if it is illegal. I guess shame on them, and shame on me for not reading that letter from ATF right? You can scold me till my eyes burn, and make ME turn a new leaf, but someone needs to give the large sellers a heads up, because I have always figured that if Century, SOG, AIM, or Centerfire sells it, they are within the bounds of the law, and anything else was open to interpretation. Also, another example; did anyone buy a M1903 rifle from AIM a few weeks ago at that outrageous price? It was being sold as C&R and yet refitted with a green synthetic stock. Illegal right since it was not in an original stock, yet sold out in less than a week. Just a thought...

- Also, I have purchased a bunch of incomplete, U-fixem rifles from Century over the past few years. I fix them up, and restore them most of the time when I can up the funds, and keep the rest of the parts in a bin for a later build, or for replacement parts that tend to break. Clearly the U-fixem rifle does not come to me in original configuration, thus there is a grey area here as well. I once recieved a rifle that had 50% of the stock broken off, thus what I truly recieved was a barreled reciever with a sliver of wood on it and no bolt and plenty of rust and cosmo. I have also purchased a few Polish MN barreled recievers from Centerfire, busted SKS's from SOG, and M95's from Century. Each was logged in as a normal firearm. It has been my interpretation that as long as the barrel and reciever are intact and in original configuration it can be purchased under the C&R rules. Again, through my interpretation and other posts here, the rules only state that a reciever ALONE cannot be identified as a C&R rifle, right?

Let me know.

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