Re: new .32 French long
Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:50 pm
Swihartmark's cut brass more photos:
For shooters and collectors of Military firearms worldwide
I sent a long reply 45 min of typing, but the forum kicked me out and said to sign in and then all was lost. I just about shot the screen. So real fast here is some data from my 300 pages of old print out forum posts and my notes mostly from pre 2012. Mike Venturino in Shooting WW II Small Arms 2014 p 256 list AOL as 1.194 but he is using hard lead cast bullets from RCBS mold 32-84 RN a 81 grain lead bullet.
Post subject: Re: French M1935A PistolPostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:49 am
Garra did a lot of work on these a few years back
I used 3.1 gn Unique with an AOL of 1.137.
he used a lee mold because the Sierra bullets in .308 were too small in actual size measuring something like .306 so he used a "Lee mold in .311 RN 100 gn weight".
by garra » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:45 pm
On the load I used with the Lee cast bullets. (.311) 3.1 gn Unique, 100 gn bullet with an OAL of 1.137"
From an old gunboards post in 2012 the AOL is listed as 1.198 for Sierra .308 85 grain SPRN bullets, then they state OAL was reduced for 93 grain bullets to 1.110 AOL
On line specs for 7.62x 20mm longue is 1.191 form a 2009 print out in my notes
Buffalo Arms ammo from 2009 uses 85 grain Sierra RN soft point jacketed bullet with a kind of flat lead nose, item SIE 8005. This loaded ammo is their stuff and measures short at OAL of 1.166 to 1.168. Both boxes are approximately the same OAL.
Old Western Scrounger 2011 ammo still new in the box with a yellow tag uses a 93 grain FMJ and varies in OAL from 1.099 to 1.100. No idea of whos brand bullet at 93 grains.
Now the steel case military ammo. I measured about 3 of each year and it comes out all over the place:
AS 1947 1.191 OAL
JA 1945 1.193 OAL
AT 1947 1.186 OAL
A ? 1946 1.198 OAL
VE FY 1951 1.191 OAL
So that is a wide range. None of the steel case original ammo has good primers- they are all dead. When pulled powder looks different in different years-like they used different stuff as needed. The brass from Buff. and OWS cut cases fire, but jam due to uneven odd cuts in the way the brass was cut. It is not as uniform as the factory military steel case ammo. I would say poor machining of the converted brass and each companies cut looks different, as well as batches from the same company. This is seen in the base diameter cut, rim thickness, and the side angle cut. It varies with different batches, hence no consistency like the steel factory ammo. They also use different brands of brass cases. Too many factors at play in the making of the .32 long brass cases. A tricky pistol to load for. This is a quick reply. I hope to get more data after I sort through 500 rounds of that dead military ammo.
#8 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:49 pm
I just pushed the bullets deeper into their cases and now they all fit the chamber. It appears that the case rests on a shoulder inside the chamber, so case length seems to be critical, not overall length. At least, that is how I see it when I put the bullets into the chamber with me just holding the barrel and doing it manually. Also, the ejector groove I cut into the 32 S&W long fits snuggly into the slide. I can see why the wider rims on 32 ACP would damage the ejector now. Man, things you learn when you get to see inside where all the parts and components mash up and fit.
Since I am due to see OSU attempt to defeat the Badgers of Wisconsin this Saturday, I will attempt to shoot the M1935A around December 9th, weather permitting. I'll be seated all the way up top at the fifty yard line if you want to see me on TV. I'll be wearing the #5 OSU jersey.
Here is the CH4D set and the RCBS special order shell holder that works good. Dies are marked "7.65 Mannlicher" ????? BUT WORK. See photos of the 7.65 special order RCBS shell holder #57170. I am not sure what size CH4D uses. I went with what works. RCBS's $20 shell holder 57170. =D> :thumb:
RCBS # 12 ( 22 Hornet) $7 fits the diameter of the cartridge, but not the rim thickness up and down space. There is about a .035-.037 gap between a cartridge and the holder due to rim thickness difference of the 22 Hornet vs the .32 French Longue. Some also use the Lee # 7 shell holder that fits the M1 carbine and the .32 ACP. Maybe all three could work if some brass has different rim thickness. But RCBS 7.65 fits my 700 original cartridges just fine.
Okay, I finally received some Old Western Scrounger, Buffalo Arms, and Original French 7.65mm brass. The OWS and BA brass used 32 S&W long to make their 7.65mm longue cases. Here are some of my findings.
Maker, Groove did Groove length, Rim dia, Rim width, Case Length, Groove angle, Case
France .290 .038 .335 .035 .778 152 Steel
Buffalo .301 .030 .335 .031 .775 153 Starline Brass
OWS .294 .042 .336 .035 .770 148 Remington Brass
I shall convert the metric data KELT has supplied into English at a later date. I trust it is dependable in any case.
The groove length and groove angle were measured by an optical comparator. The other dimension were done using Mitutoyo ratchet micrometers with a .0001" vernier and Mitutoyo dial calipers with a .001" readout that were independently professionally calibrated this year. Mitutoyo measuring equipment is also well accepted in the machining trade and is known for its good quality.
As you can see Buffalo Arms and Old Western Scrounger didn't exactly reproduce the 7.65mm longue round. The groove diameters should be within .001 of the original and the groove widths should be within .005. The groove angle should be within 1 degree of the original as well. As for case length, I would give set the tolerance at plus or minus .002. These are not hard to obtain tolerances in any professional machine shop using a 5C collet with a stop. If you were an amateur with a 3 or 4 jaw chuck, this would be hard to do.
I have more shell cases coming in this week to give me more data. Also, I will be getting some Starline and PRVI brass in 32 S&W long to compare as well. Hopefully PRVI will have a generous rim thickness to work with.
Once I get some brass and more data, I hope to construct a high speed steel bit to cut the groove for the extractor within the tolerances I stated. I'll go on the high side for groove width. I'll be cutting the cases down to size with a counter-bore cutting tool set up in a drill press with a removable pilot I'll custom make for this job to fit the case within .002. It will be clamped to a V-Block clamp to the table after I indicate the table in within .001 of being perpendicular to the counterbore tool. I'll then set the depth within .002 with screws on the drill press.
The hard part looks to be making a good HSS bit to cut the groove in one plunge. I'll have to ask for some help on a surface grinder to get the angle cut just right and then hand grind the flat and side to the dimensions desired. I might have the flat surface ground too. Cutting the rim diameter will be a separate operation done first.
I hope this answers some question we all have had with these two suppliers. Buffalo Arms is the only one still making this brass and I would likely estimate their batches differ from each other, unless they made a custom HSS bit to cut the groove. I'll find out once I get more brass from them from people on this forum.
72 usmc » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:13 pm
Mike Venturino also has a chapter on reloading the .32 French Long in his 2014 book, SHOOTING WORLD WAR II SMALL ARMS. This is published by Wolf Pub Co. Cost was $54.
See Venturino 2014:PP. 255-257. He uses RCBS .32 Auto dies specially adjusted for the longer .32 long cartridge and uses Buffalo Arm's Starline .32 S&W modified brass with the special RCBS .32 French long shell holder. He uses RCBS mold 32-84-RN to make 81 grain .311 bullets. Powder is Titegroup with 3 grains with CCI small pistol primers. Max cartridge length is listed at 1.194 inches. He also has some interesting chapters on reloading the 8mm Nambu, 7.62x25 Tokarov and British Webley Enfield No. 2 revolver .380-20
#15 Post by 72 usmc » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:40 pm
Interesting are, Mike Beliveau results. All ammo functioned, it fired, ejected and chambered, then fired the next round. He used Hornady XTP .309 .30cal 90 grain bullets with trials using the following powders:
Screen Shot He used a RCBS 3 die .32 auto set with an OAL of 1.11 inch. he did have some problems with neck tension. Best to watch his part 1 & 2 video. At least the powders functioned the action in the pistol.
On the Starline page a reviewer used pulled Tok tips 85 grain, and 3.7 grains of Red Dot powder. No mention of OAL , die used, or primer type. But the ammo functioned the pistol.
source Gunboards https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... Ammo/page2About reloading dies:
My new Starline cases are manufactured to use .311" or .312" bullets, a .309" bullet is a slip fit in a new case. For those planning to use .308/309" bullets the cases must be resized in order to hold the bullet. The Lee sizer die set is probably the easy (but not cheap) way to go for this.
Since my groove diameter is .312, that is the size bullet I am using and the 32 ACP die set works well, only problem is the shell holder.