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 Post subject: 7.62x25 Tokarev debate
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:05 am 
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Mil-Surp Psychosis
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Ok, we have a local shop here that specializes in milsurps. The owner is mid-50ish, inherited the shop and the hobby from his dad. He's been shooting, tinkering and messing with milsurps virtually his whole life and is a storehouse of knowledge.
That's not to say he, like anyone, can't be wrong.
Which is why I am writing this:
Said dude is insistent that the surplus 7.62x25mm being sold today is all submachine gun ammo and shouldn't be shot through Tokarevs. He says that original Russian TT ammo was loaded with significantly less pressure than the hot subgun ammo. When I told him everybody shoots this stuff in their Toks, he wryly commented we were living on borrowed time, and began a story concerning a 13 year old, a mangled hand, blown receiver, sympathetic ignition and a Russian TT.

As this guy is usually on his game concerning all sorts of milsurp fact-ology, I hate to disbelieve him out of hand. But I have never seen anywhere anything about different loadings of x25, nor why there are millions of rounds of subgun ammo everywhere and mysteriously none for pistols. Additionally, I assume that many of you have fired thousands and thousands of rounds thru your Toks...so?

Anyone?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:32 am 
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Most 7.62 ammo comes in 70 round boxes. one box will fill a (nearly) a 71 rd ppsh 41 drum, or 2-35 rd mags for the ppsh, or pps 43...
Dos that mean all 7.62 tokarev ammo is machine pistol only?? No , I don't think so.
The guy needs to read a balistic chart, or chrono some ammo himself.
The czechs are the only country i know of that loaded tthe ammo hot, 20% hotter, than the russians. Never bought any czech ammo, so no problems.
the bulgarians however do/did pack it in 16 round packs. but most of that doesn't seem to have aged well. I'll run most any ammo of which i am sure of , thru my tokarevs. but none will go thru my broomhandle mauser. i'll spend the bucks to keep her intact..

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:58 am 
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There is no such thing as "Hot Tokarev Sub-Gun Ammo", nor any 7.62x25 ammo specifically made and labeled for pistol or SMG use only. Just doesn't exist. All 7.62 Tokarev ammo was spec'd and produced for use in both pistols and SMGs. I have a huge file on Tokarev ammo, about 900 different Tokarev cartridges, and over 100 different boxes and labels in my collection. Just ain't true. And I would challenge this "expert" of yours to produce any info at all on a blown-up Russian TT. You can find detonated CZ52s, but not TTs.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:59 am 
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jonnyc wrote:
Just ain't true. And I would challenge this "expert" of yours to produce any info at all on a blown-up Russian TT. You can find detonated CZ52s, but not TTs.
There is no such thing as "Hot Tokarev Sub-Gun Ammo", nor any 7.62x25 ammo specifically made and labeled for pistol or SMG use only. Just doesn't exist. All 7.62 Tokarev ammo was spec'd and produced for use in both pistols and SMGs. I have a huge file on Tokarev ammo, about 900 different Tokarev cartridges, and over 100 different boxes and labels in my collection. Just ain't true. And I would challenge this "expert" of yours to produce any info at all on a blown-up Russian TT. You can find detonated CZ52s, but not TTs.

Interesting. I was under the assumption that the CZ52 was stronger than the TT's. Either way my experience in surplus tok ammo is with the yugo and polish...work fine in my Yugo toks and CZ-52's. I havent seen a tin of "pistol" 7.62x25 either, so I think failure he is talking about was more of a fault in the pistol and not the ammo it fired. Just my thoughts here of course. Both pistols to me seem to fire the ammo just as easily.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:19 pm 
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jonnyc wrote:
There is no such thing as "Hot Tokarev Sub-Gun Ammo", nor any 7.62x25 ammo specifically made and labeled for pistol or SMG use only. Just doesn't exist. All 7.62 Tokarev ammo was spec'd and produced for use in both pistols and SMGs. I have a huge file on Tokarev ammo, about 900 different Tokarev cartridges, and over 100 different boxes and labels in my collection. Just ain't true. And I would challenge this "expert" of yours to produce any info at all on a blown-up Russian TT. You can find detonated CZ52s, but not TTs.


your data base is, to say the least, pretty huge! 900! ... certainly lends support to my doubt!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:54 am 
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"Huge" is one description, "obsessive" is another. I won't tell you what my wife has to say about it. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:45 pm 
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jonnyc, to clarify, are you saying that the belief that Czech 7.62x25 ammunition was "hotter" than the rest of Combloc 7.62x25 is false?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:38 pm 
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I am not a 7.62x 25 expert, but will add what I read some time ago. A little of the confusion may have arisen from articles written about C96 mauser pistols. This may have been written in Guns and Ammo. The author warned about shooting Czech BXN 7.2x 25 in them, but said it was fine in cz52 and Tokarevs. People tend to forget that while the cartridges may sometimes be interchangeable, the C96 was designed to fire the 30 mauser cartridge which is about 250 feet slower than the Tokarev cartridge. The author said the BXN ammo would beat a C96 to junk. Accurate Arms did a lot of testing on 7.62x25 ammo and did not find a whole lot of difference in ammo from the many they tested. I did not specifially see if they tested CZ BXN ammo. I believe this was military made by Sellier and Bellot.

I am just the messenger please don't shoot.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:06 am 
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Well I would not chance it.
The chamber can take the pressure but the frame will not.
Unless you want a bolt in you face I would not do it.
Tok ammo bent the hell out of my C 96's frame, that is why I dont have a pistol any more.
It will never go in my C96 carbine.
When you have a odd ball like a 30 mauser you either pay for the right ammo or you reload.
Reloading is cheap and easy.
You can also pull down Tok ammo and reload using a proper 30 mauser powder charge.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:13 am 
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spqrzilla - No, I think that tests have shown the Czech ammo to be on the hotter side of Tokarev milsurp ammo, but intended for pistol and SMG use, and not too hot for TT and CZ pistols.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:57 am 
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Burner wrote:
Well I would not chance it.
The chamber can take the pressure but the frame will not.
Unless you want a bolt in you face I would not do it.
Tok ammo bent the hell out of my C 96's frame, that is why I dont have a pistol any more.
It will never go in my C96 carbine.
When you have a odd ball like a 30 mauser you either pay for the right ammo or you reload.
Reloading is cheap and easy.
You can also pull down Tok ammo and reload using a proper 30 mauser powder charge.


+1 there! Im buying only commercial 30 mauser for mine now, and saving the brass for reloads.
What does bother me is the only load data I could find was an old lyman book...titled 7.62 Tokarev/30 Mauser.
Uhh... :?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:54 pm 
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total Hog Wash on the ammo. The ONLY ammo unsafe in the Tokarev and the CZ-52 pistol is the PINK Label high pressure test ammo that was sold a few years ago. No other issued ammo being sold today is unsafe in those pistols.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:47 pm 
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"PINK Label high pressure test ammo"

Gonna have to blow a little whistle on this one. There is no evidence at all that any of the Bulgarian Tokarev ammo that hit US shores was anything other than ball ammo. The labels on the pink package and pink label ammo is no different than those on any of the other variations of Bulgarian paper packets. The rounds are not marked or manufactured any differently either. In addition, plenty of shooters have fired hundreds+ of the suspect ammo without any problem. Someone got defective ammo, poorly stored ammo, mixed reloads with factory ammo, or just had a gun ready to burst the next trigger pull.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:37 am 
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Still not chancing it with Bulgarian ammo, even if it turns out to be alright.
Plenty of Romanian and new production out there. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:14 pm 
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I have shot plenty of the "pink label" paper packed ammo through my CZ52 ,no issues whatsoever.


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