http://www.scoutscopes.comhttp://www.mojosights.comhttp://smith-sights.com

It is currently Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:52 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:57 pm 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:37 pm
Posts: 2883
Location: Lee's Summit, MO
Age: 67
I shoot primarily cast bullets throug my 03A3 Springfield, with pretty good results. The bullets are from the Lee 180 gr mold, with a gas check. Without a chroni they seem to be going aroung 1500 ft/sec.

From what I've read a paper patched bullet can be pushed to 2000 ft/sec plus, with some really good accuracy, so I would like to try it. However the info for a newbee is pretty scarce. What I need is something like "Paper Patching for Dummies."

1. Has anyone tried paper-patched bullets for a .30-06?
2. How do you make them?
3. Do you size to .308, apply patch(s), then resize to .309?
4. What kind of paper do you use?
5. What shape?
6. What do you use to wet the patch?
7. Do you use one wrap or two?

Warning: If you answer any of my questions, I will probably make a real nuisance out of myself. :mrgreen:

Hector

_________________
If you can't kill it with a 30-06, you ain't in North America.
"It'll feel better when it quits hurtin'." My Dad
The first rule of intelligent tinkering is, "Save all the pieces."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:15 pm 
Offline
Mil-Surp Museum Curator
Mil-Surp Museum Curator

Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:01 pm
Posts: 643
Location: South Carolina
Age: 58
Try this forum: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

There is a sub-forum on paper patching where I bet you can get an answer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:22 pm 
Offline
Mil-Surp Museum Curator
Mil-Surp Museum Curator

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:06 pm
Posts: 930
Location: Western Texas
Age: 46
1. Has anyone tried paper-patched bullets for a .30-06?
just tried on 8mm (.323) but they were bullets with lube grooves. some seated nice and some did not.
2. How do you make them?
make what the bullet? the bullet should have straight sides, and slightly undersized..
3. Do you size to .308, apply patch(s), then resize to .309?
been thinking about paper patching from .308 to 8mm..... but once again, undersized bullet. or do not resize your neck before seating the bullet
4. What kind of paper do you use?
regular lined paper.......
5. What shape?
two lines wide, with a 45 deg angle on either end
6. What do you use to wet the patch?
water, spit, beer (if spilled don't want to waste it :roll: )
7. Do you use one wrap or two?
depends on what your cast bullet is sized too. example, for cast bullet to shoot in exact .308 barrel, you would want a .309 bullet. but if your bullet is .307, you can wrap to .309 or .310. the paper only acts like a sabot. it will be discarded once the bullet leaves the muzzle.

Well I answered all your questions to the best of my ability. so I guess I am in some really deep kimchee now :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

GO AWAY leave me alone :lol: :lol:

feel free to pm, will let ya know what I have run across so far. Just started to do this myself

yoop

_________________
Naval Gunners hit harder and penitrate deeper, just as accurate without firecontrol!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:44 pm 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:16 am
Posts: 3201
Location: CO
Age: 52
The paper shape is trapezoidal in other words. The amount of overlap is something to experiment on. The kind of paper is another thing to experiment with. I've seen linen papers well considered for paper-patching.

_________________
"A church is not the less sacred because curs frequently lift up their leg against it, and affront the wall: It is the nature of dogs." Cato's Letters.
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." - SPQR


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:43 am 
Offline
Mil-Surp Museum Curator
Mil-Surp Museum Curator

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:06 pm
Posts: 930
Location: Western Texas
Age: 46
take into consideration the thickness of the paper for how many times you will need to overlap. Every type of paper has its own thickness. Best to slug your barrel to get an accurate size for your paper patching.

yoop

trapeziod.......to big a word for me.. :lol: :lol:

_________________
Naval Gunners hit harder and penitrate deeper, just as accurate without firecontrol!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:41 am 
Offline
Mil-Surp Collector
Mil-Surp Collector

Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 7:23 pm
Posts: 328
Age: 49
I've been paper patching for about 3 years.....and handloading for about 8. I found that getting good results with PP is easy.... so I'll never go back to jacketed bullets (or just plain cast ones). I patch for the 8 x 57, very similar to (and the grandaddy of) the .30-06. My PP loads consist of a flat-nose 175 grain bullet...and I get just over 2000 fps through my 18" barreled Yugo M48.....with accuracy of 1.5" or better at 100 yards. Actually, the load will shoot into an inch, but I can't duplicate that with consistency (someone with better eyes and better skills probably could).

1) You can PP grooved bullets or smooth-sided ones. Either will work....and either can be accurate. Obviously, smooth sided bullets have an advantage at long range. But, grooved ones will do just fine. I shoot a grooved bullet myself.

2) Are you referring to how to CAST the bullets.....or just how to wrap them ? I don't cast myself, as I am partially disabled and my living environment doesn't permit it....so I purchase my bullets. I assume that you are just asking about PATCHING, because you said that you shoot "mostly" cast bullets. In a nutshell, using trapezoidal bits of paper, you wrap the bullets with TWO layers, so that the patch finishes right at the "bulge" from the starting point....in other words, two wraps with no overlap on the second (outer) layer. Others have tried 1 wrap, 1 1/2 wraps, 3, etc...... and it never works as well as the "standard" 2 wraps. So, I'd suggest just sticking with that.

3) The important issue is the final wrapped diameter. How you get there is up to you. Most smokeless powder paper patchers have the bullet at approximately BORE size....then paper patch to GROOVE diameter, or up to 0.001" over that. Usually, it does not pay to go larger than 0.001" over groove size. As well, smaller than groove doesn't usually work with smokeless, either. Black powder PP shooters usually use wrapped bullets at bore diameter. However, BP causes more obturation than SP does..... BP bullets are usually very soft..... and they have to deal with the BP fouling issue. So, what they do is NOT directly analogous to SP paper patching. Since the final diameter is the important issue, what you do is choose a combination of bullet size and paper thickness, to get there. Bear in mind that many papers will stretch and shrink, as you apply the patch and they dry, respectively. So, experimentation is always necessary, to be sure of the final product. I buy my bullets at 0.324" diameter, then size them to 0.314" (which is approx. bore diameter in my rifle, as it happens). Then I wrap them, two wraps, up to a final dry dia. of about 0.3235". Then, as a final step, after lubing the patches, I size them to 0.323".

It is always a good idea to slug your bore, in order to get an exact idea of BORE and GROOVE dia...... this will make things easier. It is well worth it, in the long run.

4) You can use ANY paper that will do the job. Some use cigarette paper...... some heavy-duty drawing vellum. I found, early on, that ordinary lined, loose leaf notebook paper works just fine....and is the right thickness for my application....so that is what I use. Also, since this paper has some cotton content, it has the necessary strength...and stretches (and shrinks when drying) allowing me to get tight patches.

What you will need to do is plan and experiment. For instance, for your .30-06, the BORE dia. should be about 0.300"....and the GROOVE dia. should be about 0.308". If that is true, depending on the bullet you choose to use for this, you should likely start with a bullet at about 0.300". That leaves 0.008" for patching. 4 layers (2 complete wraps) of paper, 0.002" thick, will give a final dia. of 0.308". Lined notebook paper is usually more like 0.0025" or so thick, so you'd end up at something like 0.310".....IF the paper didn't shrink, as it dried. Since it normally WILL shrink, you will end up at something between 0.309" and 0.310". That MIGHT be fine for your rifle....or it might not. Probably, you'll need to go no larger than 0.309". So, you could try a thinner paper......OR, simply run the wrapped, lubed bullet through a sizing die..... to get 0.309"....or 0.308" ....or whatever will work best. As I said, you do have some experimentation to do. You CAN use an oversized bullet, wrap it, then size the whole works down to your final diameter. Some people do it this way. However, you will want to avoid too much sizing. For instance, for your .30-06, you wouldn't want to use the bullets I use - (0.314", wrapped to 0.3235")....... sized down to 0.308 - 0.309"......that would be too much and you'd likely affect bullet concentricity. But, there is no need to pre-size your bullets, if they drop from the mould at the RIGHT size. So, if you cast at 0.300"...... then you are good to go. So, you see, there are multiple ways to get there.....but the important thing is the FINAL size.

4) I think I covered this already.

5) The shape of the patches, believe it or not, doesn't really matter.....up to a point. Yes, the patch will need to be some version of a rectangle, in order to wrap a round bullet....but the angle on the ends does not matter. The 45 degree trapezoidal patch was developed because the 45 degree ends made it easier to start rolling on the patch. You CAN use other angles....any angle you choose. I use 30 degrees. Why ? No technical reason.....I just started out that way.....and it works fine. (It ain't broke, so there's no need to fix it.) Some will claim that you must use an angle that coincides fairly closely with the rifling pitch of your barrel. That has been disproven by experimentation. You could even use NO angle - true rectangular patches (some have done it). However, the angle on the ends just makes it easier, so I'd suggest you use some sort of angle (exactly what is your choice). 45 degrees is easy, so why not start there ? Note that, whatever angle you use, BOTH ends of the patch MUST be uniform (same angle), in order for the patch seam to line up - and you DO want it to line up, as much as possible. You also want to experiment with patch length, so that the final seam will be as tight as possible. A SMALL gap is OK....say 1 /32" or so, but the end seam of the patch should be as tight and uniform as possible (for greatest consistency.....and best accuracy).

6) Wet the patches with plain water - just PLAIN water. Others have tried all sorts of concoctions.... but plain water always ends up being best. How long you soak the patches (how wet you get them), will depend on the paper used. Tougher vellum papers will need to be wetter..... lined notebook paper, less so. I don't SOAK my patches..... they tend to tear too easily. I just DIP each one, then remove the excess water with my fingers, right before patching each bullet. Now, as to the "sealing" of the patch edge, or final seam..... that is a subject for debate and consideration. Most do nothing here, just let the tightness of the wrapping and the base, keep the patch sealed. It is easy with large-calibre bullets, with the right paper (as it is easier to wrap them anyway). For smaller calibres, it gets tougher. So, from the beginning, I have used a TINY amount of yellow glue to seal my patches. Some blanch at the idea, but it works for me. I simply smear, with my finger, a very THIN coat of yellow glue on the last 1/8 - 1/4" of patch, before rolling it closed. So, I always get nice, tightly sealed patches, that never come apart (before they should).

Glue is a controversial topic, however. You definitely NEVER want the patch to be adhered to the bullet. The way things are supposed to work is that - the rifling cuts the patch, as the bullet travels up the bore - then the patch strips cleanly off the bullet, just after it exits the muzzle. You don't want to do anything to change that scenario - as it will ruin accuracy - NEVER should the patch stay on the bullet, all the way to the target. You see, what paper patching really creates is a "sabot" for your cast bullet. We are simply making a sabot of paper (and directly on the bullet)....rather than a pre-manufactured sabot.

I should say something about bullet bases. What to do ?....... fold over the patch, to form a flat base.....or twist a tail ? This is VERY controversial. Many say and I think that most agree, the base of the patch should be as consistent as possible. This would indicate that folding the patch over to form a flat base would be best. I have tried it both ways, extensively. It is MUCH easier to fold over the patch to form a flat base on LARGER diameter bullets. With something like the 30 cal..... or 8mm, you will find it easier to twist tails. I do both, but tend to twist tails, the snip them off after drying (and flattening the base against a hard surface)....most of the time. I have found no accuracy difference, at least, in my rifle and at the distances over which I shoot (generally, no more than 150 yards). I do believe that folded bases are probably better, simply because of more consistency, in the end - but I can't prove it.

7) I've covered this already, but I'll reinterate. All manner of techniques have been tried - one wrap, two, three.....wrapping a severely undesized bullet up to another diameter, etc. But, in the end, the standard TWO wrap technique works best. With paper, I'm sure it always will. So, you can play around with wrapping all you want. But, in the end, you'll most likely come back to the "standard" form.

Well, there are answers to your questions - such as they are. You'll probably have lots more (paper patching is both simple..... and very complicated, at the same time). It occurs to me that a few simple drawings might help - or photos, for that matter. I do not have a suitable camera.......so I'll make up a few simple drawings illustrating what I've talked about (above)..... and post them on this thread.

I hope that I've helped you.


Edit: One more thing. Undoubtedly, you've heard that jacketed bullet velocities are obtainable, with paper patched cast bullets. This is true, with certain limitations and specifications. The velocity you will be able to achieve with PP depends on the relative hardness of the bullet alloy used - just as when shooting "naked" cast bullets. The higher the BHN (bullet hardness number), the faster you'll be able to go. In your 30-06, even 3000 fps is obtainable, but with a bullet alloy which is so hard (and therefore, brittle) that it will shatter on impact on most solid substances. So, really high velocity PP bullets are NO good for hunting. For good expansion on game animals, a BHN of not too much more than 15 is recommended......with that alloy, you'll be able to get a little past 2000 fps....perhaps 2200 or so. I can get to that velocity with my BHN 12 - 15 PP bullets, but I get much better accuracy at around 2000 - so that is the point to which I load them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:18 pm 
Offline
Mil-Surp Collector
Mil-Surp Collector

Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 7:23 pm
Posts: 328
Age: 49
OK, so I have made a few simple drawings.....hopefully they will help. Note that I am NOT saying that the way I do it is the ONLY way. There are some aspects of PP that are continually argued over by those practicing this "art". (One example is the direction of wrapping - conventional thought is that wrapping in the direction opposite to the twist of the barrel, as I have shown, ensures that the patch stays tight in the barrel. However, there is much evidence that it doesn't make a difference - how can a patch loosen in the confines of the barrel, anyway ?). So, take what I have given you just as what it is - "conventional" technique....which works for me. I'd suggest that you start out by doing it the conventional way, before experimenting "outside the box". In other words, learn to walk before you try to run.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:12 pm 
Offline
Mil-Surp Museum Curator
Mil-Surp Museum Curator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:57 am
Posts: 625
Location: Indiana
Age: 52
I'm really interested in this thread, but in the last post, all the pictures read "PatchWapping4.tif" but no picture? Can i fix this?

And thanks for some really clear, informative information Nottoknow! Also, could you comment on barrel wear with PP? I've heard it said it will shoot out a barrel much faster than jacketed bullets.

Thanks,

Ronn

_________________
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.

Elie Wiesel


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:30 pm 
Offline
Mil-Surp Collector
Mil-Surp Collector

Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 7:23 pm
Posts: 328
Age: 49
I don't know what is wrong with the pictures, for you, anyway. They are simply .tiff images that I uploaded from my scanner. "PatchWrapping4.tiff" is the last of the picture files, which is loaded first on the post. Sorry, I don't know what to do about that.

As for barrel wear....it is an absolute misnomer that PP wears a barrel faster than any other bullet type. The fact is, PP is a rather rare thing these days....and most people know nothing about it. So, it is not surprising that all manner of nonsense stories are circulated. It is true that most papers are abrasive, to some degree, but only to a small degree. What paper does do is polish the bore to some extent....and scrub out most of the powder fouling from previous shots. As a result, barrels shooting PP bullets will usually be FAR cleaner after shooting, than after shooting jacketed - and NO metal fouling. Some PP shooters don't lube their patched bullets, some do. Adding lube to the patches will, of course, reduce friction....and any polishing (or wearing) effect. So, will PP wear a bore faster than copper jacketed bullets...or plain cast ? No, of course not. The vast majority of barrel "wear" occurs via gas cutting in the throat area anyway. Besides, paper patch loads are generally lighter than jacketed loads would be in the same rifle...... and lower peak pressures = less gas cutting.

As a matter of fact, according to standard tables on the subject, the coefficient of friction of paper on steel is about the same as that of copper on steel.....0.84 (paper) vs. 0.8 (copper). Bare Lead, at 1.4, has a higher coefficient of friction than either.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:10 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:31 pm
Posts: 10244
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Age: 63
I started paper patching in 1975. Calibers .25-.510 If you get stumped, contact me for some tips.

_________________
Gulf of Tonkin Yacht Club '70-72
GMCM(SW) USN 68-89
Gunnersmates-Dealers of Death.
President NM MILSURPS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:18 am 
Offline
Mil-Surp Museum Curator
Mil-Surp Museum Curator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:57 am
Posts: 625
Location: Indiana
Age: 52
I can see that othere's are opening the picture--must be some silly setting on my computer. Thank's for the input on barrel wear, thinking about making some PP hunting loads for my 404j.

Ronn

_________________
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.

Elie Wiesel


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:31 pm 
Offline
Mil-Surp Shooter
Mil-Surp Shooter

Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:36 am
Posts: 112
Very interesting subject,,my ques is that after all this resizing.paper wrapping and shrinking and lubing.. :?

the paper will stay on the bullet when it it pressed into the shell? thats a tight fit , tight enough to hold w/o a crimp???
I am refering to a 30.06......

Havent head any mention of assembly.


not trying to hijack the thread..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:30 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:31 pm
Posts: 10244
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Age: 63
Paper patch is to NEVER stay on bullet when fired
you NEVER crimp the bullet
No Lube is used on the bullet, a grease cookie under the bullet can be used.
No GLUE is used
You thumb seat the bullet into an expanded neck cartridge.A slight force of a bullet seater can be used. All cases must be well beveled on the inside of the case mouth.
The paper patch is to ride on the lands preventing the lead from touching the bore of the rifle. The lands are never to cut through the paper. You can push the bullet 2,000 fps with no problems.

_________________
Gulf of Tonkin Yacht Club '70-72
GMCM(SW) USN 68-89
Gunnersmates-Dealers of Death.
President NM MILSURPS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:27 am 
Offline
Mil-Surp Museum Curator
Mil-Surp Museum Curator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:57 am
Posts: 625
Location: Indiana
Age: 52
Thumb seating, Hummmmm. Well that proabably eliminates it's use in my 404j, as recoil would probably bounce the bullets deep into the case after a round or two. Interesting information none-the-less, thanks for taking the time to pass that on to us!

Ronn

_________________
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.

Elie Wiesel


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:29 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:31 pm
Posts: 10244
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Age: 63
what you can do is buy a canalure tool and place a "crimp" ring under the bullet. This will prevent the bullet from being pushed too far into the case. The tight fit of the paperpatch should hold it in place if loaded into a magazine. single shot is recommended.

_________________
Gulf of Tonkin Yacht Club '70-72
GMCM(SW) USN 68-89
Gunnersmates-Dealers of Death.
President NM MILSURPS


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
FAIR USE NOTICE: This site may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been pre-authorized by the copyright owner. Such material is made available to advance understanding of political, economic, scientific, social, art, media, and cultural issues. The 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material that may exist on this site is provided for under U.S. Copyright Law. In accordance with U.S. Code Title 17, Section 107, material on this site is distributed without profit to persons interested in such information for research and educational purposes. If you want to use any copyrighted material that may exist on this site for purposes that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.