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Share you facts on the Type I rifle

Arisaka, Murata, Siamese, Korean, and North China Rifles
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Rapidrob
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Share you facts on the Type I rifle

#1 Post by Rapidrob » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:45 am

An interesting rifle made by the Italians for the Japanese. The Japanese considered them to be 2ND rate, as did the Britt's and our M1914 Enfield rifles we made for them.
Serching the net I was able to find a few facts about these rifles. Please feel free to add what you to have found about these rifle.
1. The barrel threads are the same as the Carcano rifle.
2. The rifle is 2 CM ( .78" )shorter than the Type 38 Japanese rifles.
3. The wood is much denser making the rifle heavier than the Type 38.
4. The rifling is four groove Medford type. ( lands equal to grooves in width )
5, Twist rate is one turn in 8.375 inches ( this is contested at several sites)
6. Action bolts from the Type 38 to the Type I cannot be interchanged. The bolt face and extractor is different as well as the pressure release groove.
7. Type I will take the standard Japanese bayonet.
8. Bullet was a Spitzer, flat base lead core of 138.9 grains
9. Muzzle velocity is reported to be on the average 2,500 FPS
10. Smokeless powder was considered "Flashless" This is contested in many publications by the U.S Army in several publications. I'm waiting for a powder expert to reply from my queries.
11. The Japanese Navy liked the rifle. It was used towards the end of the war in some battles.
12. Sights are an open "V" notch rear leaf and a unprotected barley corn front. ( Think Mauser )
13. Magazine fed,5 rounds. Floor plate has catch drop. ( a nice touch)
14. Type 38 cleaning rod used.
15. The quality of the rifle build is better than most war-time Carcano rifles.
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Re: Share you facts on the Type I rifle

#2 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:08 pm

The most important part missing is the Emperor's mum, which it does not have. If the Emperor isn't going to have his mark on your rifle, you can only surmise that the rifle is second rate. Who wants to fight for the Emperor without a rifle with his mark on it? More people should know this.

The Japanese Army simply refused to make enough rifles available to the Japanese Navy as they were beyond bitter rivals, hence the need for an overseas manufacturer. If my memory serves me right, they were assassinating each others generals and admirals at one point. US Army-Navy football had nothing on these guys.

Naval land units weren't as numerous as Army units, so the Type I didn't get around as much, so its rarity is magnified. I would think they were issued to the soldiers at Tarawa as it had a large naval landing unit serving as its garrison as well as some units at Guadalcanal.

The Japanese had QC people in the Italian plants when they were made, hence a reason for the better quality. I've seen the pictures actually. The Italians got the contract since they were far cheaper than Mauser's at the time.

If I recall correctly, the Italians did not open up the chambers to work if they got dirty in the field, like the standard type 38's and 99's. As for target shooting and saving that valuable 6.5mm Japanese brass from wear, the "Typo I" as the Italians called them, is a better choice for the shooter.

I believe the Italian manufacturer's mark is underneath the receiver/barrel. 25% or so were made by Beretta.

The wood the Italians used is beech I believe. I don't know if beech even grows in Asia. Mine took boiled linseed oil very nicely as a result. I think loads of Japanese rifles used a poison oak derived stain. I do know that finish was used in the region historically and if you mess with the stain be very careful. Typo I's were shipped without any stain I believe.

With its standard Mauser type stacked magazine, it eliminated the need for those six round Mannlucher clips on standard Carcano rifles.

Overall, the Typo I is a great rifle. It also uses standard tangent sights, unlike regular Carcanos which use the bottom of the V-notch to sight in off of. This does not help the accuracy reports of people using Carcanos that don't know that.

Hope that helps out.

Best Regards,

Mark


BTW, The English used M-1914's as sniper rifles, especially ones made by Winchester. I would guess it's only having a five round magazine instead of ten has something to do with perceived inferiority. It also didn't help that they weren't English designed and made, after all its a copy of a Mauser just like the Springfield 1903. With the massive recoil of shooting 30-06 with a bolt action rifle, I prefer my M-1917 over the 1903 Springfield since it is heavier.

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Re: Share you facts on the Type I rifle

#3 Post by Airforce1 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:18 pm

There are 2 lengths of rifle. 1 having an inch taken off the butt to ease shouldering.

Most never saw action and being captured still in the crates.

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Re: Share you facts on the Type I rifle

#4 Post by Rapidrob » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:25 pm

I read that the rifles did use two stock lengths. One for the "normal" height Japanese from the central and southern Main island,and a longer butt stock for the northern main island and north islands residents. Having lived in Japan for three years I can see this as being necessary as many of the northern residents of Japan are very large ( 6 plus feet tall) and would need a longer butt stock.
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Re: Share you facts on the Type I rifle

#5 Post by slowbob2 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:33 am

There were no Type-I's at Guadalcanal . The US did a major collection and evaluation of Japanese weapons there and they are not ever mentioned . None have ever turned up at Tarawa and it was cleaned up and used a base for years .

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Re: Share you facts on the Type I rifle

#6 Post by slowbob2 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:55 am

The Type I is a much more accurate rifle than the standard 6.5mm Carcano for several reasons . The sights are not a major factor . The Type-I has a different barrel, a tighter bore and groove , does not have gain twist . That lets it respond much better to a good handload than a Carcano . The Carcano is good enough for combat using military loads when compared to other rifles using military loads , but without any good bullets for reloading , the deep rifling , it just can't step up like other types . The gain twist [ on the earlier guns ] does not help either . With military rifles in as issued condition with a good handload , the Type I is in the top 20% , the Carcano the bottom 20% .

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Re: Share you facts on the Type I rifle

#7 Post by slowbob2 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:11 am

A quick correction : A larger bore but tighter groove .

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Re: Share you facts on the Type I rifle

#8 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:03 pm

Sorry for the wrong info. I heard it from a buddy of mine who was into Arisaka rifles quite heavily at the time. I do know naval units were at the places I mentioned. before.

Best Regards,

Mark

BTW, I still say standard Carcano sights using the bottom of the V-notch can't hold a candle to the regular tangent sights on Typo I's. It just takes a while to get used to and I don't know if it is worth it to get used to.

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Re: Share you facts on the Type I rifle

#9 Post by slowbob2 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:42 pm

Guadalcanal was the first time the US captured a large grouping of the current Japanese weapons and they did a big study . Tarawa was so small they should not have missed anything there over the years . Yes there were naval troops at both places but they had regular T-38's . I have done temporary sight mods to the Carcano sights and they shot no better for me .

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Re: Share you facts on the Type I rifle

#10 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:55 pm

I truly suspect that since the Typo I's didn't have an emperor's mum on them, they were kept in reserve. I don't even know if they were shipped with many spares at all. I'm guessing not. That would be another reason to keep them in reserve. I guess they could make firing pins okay though, but bolts and such are another matter.

Best Regards,

Mark

BTW, I've glanced a book on Carcanos and it had an Italian army draw diagram on how to use the sights and the sight picture is all the way at the bottle of the V-Notch. Not exactly a precise area when you think of it. The standard tangent sight used the straight line above the notch and is much more precise. I'm usually happy to hit paper with my regular Carcanos, the 91/41 excepted. I swear the tooling was wore out in 1943 when she was made. Loves the .264 diameter bullets. I cannot think of another reason why.

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Re: Share you facts on the Type I rifle

#11 Post by slowbob2 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:52 am

The reason is that like most everybody else , the Italians made the groove smaller later in production . Most M-41's will measure around .266 ish . A .264 flat base bullet will work fine in those . The M-41 starts to eliminate some of the major Carcano barrel problems from the earlier rifles , very deep rifling with a large [ up to .270 + very early ] groove dia and gain twist .

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