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new .32 French long

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72 usmc
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Re: new .32 French long

#16 Post by 72 usmc » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:50 pm

Swihartmark's cut brass more photos:
IMG_2254.jpg
IMG_2249.jpg
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Re: new .32 French long

#17 Post by 72 usmc » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:05 pm

Swihartmark's cut brass case that works marked in red &(R) and Starline brass( S & black line). What seems to be important is the rim's thinness and size of the rim. Also the diameter of the case below the rims edge and space below the rim and angle cut. I think this allows the ejector to grab better and allows for variation in ejectors found in different pistols. All conjecture on my part. But notice the difference in the rim size and thickness causes some of the buffalo and OWS ammo to work in some pistols and fail in others. Other factors may be at play in bottle necks, failure to eject, or failure to rechamber the next round after the first round ejects, such as possible powder type & amount, bullet grain, OAL, and strength of the pistol's main recoil spring. Swihartmark's rim thickness is identical to Starline and the original French steel cased cartridges. Some comparison photos:
IMG_2255.jpg
IMG_2256.jpg
IMG_2257.jpg
IMG_2258.jpg
IMG_2259.jpg
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Re: new .32 French long

#18 Post by 72 usmc » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:24 pm

When you think about the set up and expensive equipment needed and the care/precision required to cut the brass, 22 cents per cartridge is a deal. :think:
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: new .32 French long

#19 Post by 72 usmc » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:37 am

Some old data from an old post:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=1557
I sent a long reply 45 min of typing, but the forum kicked me out and said to sign in and then all was lost. I just about shot the screen. So real fast here is some data from my 300 pages of old print out forum posts and my notes mostly from pre 2012. Mike Venturino in Shooting WW II Small Arms 2014 p 256 list AOL as 1.194 but he is using hard lead cast bullets from RCBS mold 32-84 RN a 81 grain lead bullet.

garra
Post subject: Re: French M1935A PistolPostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:49 am
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Garra did a lot of work on these a few years back
I used 3.1 gn Unique with an AOL of 1.137.
he used a lee mold because the Sierra bullets in .308 were too small in actual size measuring something like .306 so he used a "Lee mold in .311 RN 100 gn weight".
AGAIN
by garra » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:45 pm

On the load I used with the Lee cast bullets. (.311) 3.1 gn Unique, 100 gn bullet with an OAL of 1.137"
From an old gunboards post in 2012 the AOL is listed as 1.198 for Sierra .308 85 grain SPRN bullets, then they state OAL was reduced for 93 grain bullets to 1.110 AOL

On line specs for 7.62x 20mm longue is 1.191 form a 2009 print out in my notes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.65×20mm_Longue

Buffalo Arms ammo from 2009 uses 85 grain Sierra RN soft point jacketed bullet with a kind of flat lead nose, item SIE 8005. This loaded ammo is their stuff and measures short at OAL of 1.166 to 1.168. Both boxes are approximately the same OAL.

Old Western Scrounger 2011 ammo still new in the box with a yellow tag uses a 93 grain FMJ and varies in OAL from 1.099 to 1.100. No idea of whos brand bullet at 93 grains.

Now the steel case military ammo. I measured about 3 of each year and it comes out all over the place:
AS 1947 1.191 OAL
JA 1945 1.193 OAL
AT 1947 1.186 OAL
A ? 1946 1.198 OAL
VE FY 1951 1.191 OAL

So that is a wide range. None of the steel case original ammo has good primers- they are all dead. When pulled powder looks different in different years-like they used different stuff as needed. The brass from Buff. and OWS cut cases fire, but jam due to uneven odd cuts in the way the brass was cut. It is not as uniform as the factory military steel case ammo. I would say poor machining of the converted brass and each companies cut looks different, as well as batches from the same company. This is seen in the base diameter cut, rim thickness, and the side angle cut. It varies with different batches, hence no consistency like the steel factory ammo. They also use different brands of brass cases. Too many factors at play in the making of the .32 long brass cases. A tricky pistol to load for. This is a quick reply. I hope to get more data after I sort through 500 rounds of that dead military ammo.

#8 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:49 pm

I just pushed the bullets deeper into their cases and now they all fit the chamber. It appears that the case rests on a shoulder inside the chamber, so case length seems to be critical, not overall length. At least, that is how I see it when I put the bullets into the chamber with me just holding the barrel and doing it manually. Also, the ejector groove I cut into the 32 S&W long fits snuggly into the slide. I can see why the wider rims on 32 ACP would damage the ejector now. Man, things you learn when you get to see inside where all the parts and components mash up and fit.

Since I am due to see OSU attempt to defeat the Badgers of Wisconsin this Saturday, I will attempt to shoot the M1935A around December 9th, weather permitting. I'll be seated all the way up top at the fifty yard line if you want to see me on TV. I'll be wearing the #5 OSU jersey.

Best Regards,

Mark

Post by 72 USMC
Here is the CH4D set and the RCBS special order shell holder that works good. Dies are marked "7.65 Mannlicher" ????? BUT WORK. See photos of the 7.65 special order RCBS shell holder #57170. I am not sure what size CH4D uses. I went with what works. RCBS's $20 shell holder 57170. =D> :thumb:
RCBS # 12 ( 22 Hornet) $7 fits the diameter of the cartridge, but not the rim thickness up and down space. There is about a .035-.037 gap between a cartridge and the holder due to rim thickness difference of the 22 Hornet vs the .32 French Longue. :doh: :doh: :snooty: :snooty: Some also use the Lee # 7 shell holder that fits the M1 carbine and the .32 ACP. Maybe all three could work if some brass has different rim thickness. But RCBS 7.65 fits my 700 original cartridges just fine.


Post by SWIHARTMARK after he measured some of my samples
Quote:
Okay, I finally received some Old Western Scrounger, Buffalo Arms, and Original French 7.65mm brass. The OWS and BA brass used 32 S&W long to make their 7.65mm longue cases. Here are some of my findings.

Maker, Groove did Groove length, Rim dia, Rim width, Case Length, Groove angle, Case
France .290 .038 .335 .035 .778 152 Steel
Buffalo .301 .030 .335 .031 .775 153 Starline Brass
OWS .294 .042 .336 .035 .770 148 Remington Brass

I shall convert the metric data KELT has supplied into English at a later date. I trust it is dependable in any case.

The groove length and groove angle were measured by an optical comparator. The other dimension were done using Mitutoyo ratchet micrometers with a .0001" vernier and Mitutoyo dial calipers with a .001" readout that were independently professionally calibrated this year. Mitutoyo measuring equipment is also well accepted in the machining trade and is known for its good quality.

As you can see Buffalo Arms and Old Western Scrounger didn't exactly reproduce the 7.65mm longue round. The groove diameters should be within .001 of the original and the groove widths should be within .005. The groove angle should be within 1 degree of the original as well. As for case length, I would give set the tolerance at plus or minus .002. These are not hard to obtain tolerances in any professional machine shop using a 5C collet with a stop. If you were an amateur with a 3 or 4 jaw chuck, this would be hard to do.

I have more shell cases coming in this week to give me more data. Also, I will be getting some Starline and PRVI brass in 32 S&W long to compare as well. Hopefully PRVI will have a generous rim thickness to work with.

Once I get some brass and more data, I hope to construct a high speed steel bit to cut the groove for the extractor within the tolerances I stated. I'll go on the high side for groove width. I'll be cutting the cases down to size with a counter-bore cutting tool set up in a drill press with a removable pilot I'll custom make for this job to fit the case within .002. It will be clamped to a V-Block clamp to the table after I indicate the table in within .001 of being perpendicular to the counterbore tool. I'll then set the depth within .002 with screws on the drill press.

The hard part looks to be making a good HSS bit to cut the groove in one plunge. I'll have to ask for some help on a surface grinder to get the angle cut just right and then hand grind the flat and side to the dimensions desired. I might have the flat surface ground too. Cutting the rim diameter will be a separate operation done first.

I hope this answers some question we all have had with these two suppliers. Buffalo Arms is the only one still making this brass and I would likely estimate their batches differ from each other, unless they made a custom HSS bit to cut the groove. I'll find out once I get more brass from them from people on this forum.
72 usmc » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:13 pm

Mike Venturino also has a chapter on reloading the .32 French Long in his 2014 book, SHOOTING WORLD WAR II SMALL ARMS. This is published by Wolf Pub Co. Cost was $54.
See Venturino 2014:PP. 255-257. He uses RCBS .32 Auto dies specially adjusted for the longer .32 long cartridge and uses Buffalo Arm's Starline .32 S&W modified brass with the special RCBS .32 French long shell holder. He uses RCBS mold 32-84-RN to make 81 grain .311 bullets. Powder is Titegroup with 3 grains with CCI small pistol primers. Max cartridge length is listed at 1.194 inches. He also has some interesting chapters on reloading the 8mm Nambu, 7.62x25 Tokarov and British Webley Enfield No. 2 revolver .380-20

Mike Beliveau data with XTP' .309 Hornady # 31000, 90 grain bullets:
#15 Post by 72 usmc » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:40 pm

Interesting are, Mike Beliveau results. All ammo functioned, it fired, ejected and chambered, then fired the next round. He used Hornady XTP .309 .30cal 90 grain bullets with trials using the following powders:
Screen Shot
Screen Shot 2019-08-29 at 3.27.12 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-08-29 at 3.27.12 PM.png (107.2 KiB) Viewed 465 times
He used a RCBS 3 die .32 auto set with an OAL of 1.11 inch. he did have some problems with neck tension. Best to watch his part 1 & 2 video. At least the powders functioned the action in the pistol.

On the Starline page a reviewer used pulled Tok tips 85 grain, and 3.7 grains of Red Dot powder. No mention of OAL , die used, or primer type. But the ammo functioned the pistol.


Most of the ancient, salvaged data lacking photos is here: viewtopic.php?f=43&t=551
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: new .32 French long

#20 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:43 am

The starline brass deal is too reasonable to pass on. I can likely fix this stuff if it does not work. 32 S&W long brass costs money too, so the xtra machining costs to me would be silly even though I have custom tooling and know my why around a manual turret lathe. I figure the only thing that could be wrong with this brass is the rim thickness and groove diameter and ejector angle. I got a tool that one shots all of that just in case.

Now for a proper mould..... great that I can use the cast stuff for 32acp as well.

Best regards,

Mark

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Re: new .32 French long

#21 Post by 72 usmc » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:26 pm

Here is a quick sample of 3 cartridges each of the following brass, measurements. Not too scientific with such a small sample :shhh: :doh: Realize this is a cheep $50 metal dial caliper I used to measure pottery sherds as an archaeologist, not a quality Starrett. Each instrument will provide different results with cheep stuff. But you can see the ranges when done with one caliper. Mark will supply his measurements with quality tools when his new Starline brass arrives.


Rim diameter, outside edge to edge
French steel case original 0.331 inch
Starline 0.331
Buffalo cut case 0.331- 0.333
Old Western Scrounger cut case 0.332- 0.333
Marks red cut case 0.331

Rim Thickness
French steel case original 0.037- 0.040 inch
Starline 0.039- 0.040
Buffalo cut case 0.043- 0.048
Old Western Scrounger cut case 0.043- 0.048, I looked at my boxes and by far this is the thickest cut rim, most at .047-.049
Marks red cut case 0.039


Groove diameter just below the rim edge
French steel case original 0.288-0.289 inch
Starline 0.287- 0.288
Buffalo cut case 0.281- 0.282, some case blow out due to thin brass.
Old Western Scrounger cut case 0.292- 0.293
Marks red cut case 0.296- 0.297

Cartridge case length
French steel case original 0.771- 0.775 inch
Starline 0.773- 0.775
Buffalo cut case 0.775- 0.777
Old Western Scrounger cut case 0.775- 0.774
Marks red cut case 0.766- 0.769

note I just corrected two typos
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:44 pm, edited 7 times in total.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: new .32 French long

#22 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:48 pm

Looks like the starline stuff is ready to go. My groove diameter looks shocking now. No jams though.

Best regards,

Mark

Cutting 17-4 stainless now. Light a candle in the window for me.

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Re: new .32 French long

#23 Post by 72 usmc » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:46 pm

Screen Shot 2019-08-26 at 8.23.41 PM.png
Starline case measurements
IMG_2262.jpg

Original French Long ammunition measurements; based on 3 of each year. There is some variation in original French ammo. You see the ranges I get with my small sample. Certainly, it does not fit the book specs. Wait till you see the bullets and there poor quality control.
IMG_2263.jpg
Last edited by 72 usmc on Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: new .32 French long

#24 Post by 72 usmc » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:37 pm

Some pulled French Long, steel case, 1947 ammunition. The bullets are shocking- what happen to quality control?
IMG_2264.jpg
IMG_2265.jpg
IMG_2266.jpg
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Re: new .32 French long

#25 Post by 72 usmc » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:08 pm

Last edited by 72 usmc on Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: new .32 French long

#26 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:39 am

I use Unique powder right now and this confirms it is a proper choice. I think it mimics French military pistol powder as well. I load all my pistol rounds with Unique. Right now I am too much of a rookie pistol shooter to notice much difference in powders.

Best Regards,

Mark

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Re: new .32 French long

#27 Post by 72 usmc » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:37 pm

An interesting comment:
About reloading dies:
My new Starline cases are manufactured to use .311" or .312" bullets, a .309" bullet is a slip fit in a new case. For those planning to use .308/309" bullets the cases must be resized in order to hold the bullet. The Lee sizer die set is probably the easy (but not cheap) way to go for this.
Since my groove diameter is .312, that is the size bullet I am using and the 32 ACP die set works well, only problem is the shell holder.
source Gunboards https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... Ammo/page2
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: new .32 French long

#28 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:05 pm

I just got my order in from Starline. The rim thickness seems to be a few thousands longer than mine and some 1945 steel cased French ammo I just measured. My groove diameter was about the same as the 1945 stuff, .295" or so. I took my M1935A apart and fitted the new Starline, my old stuff, and the 1945 stuff into the chamber using the barrel to hold the case in place. The new Starline stuff seemed stiffer going in so far. I don't know if this will effect firing it and chambering the next round though until I do it. The groove width of the Starline stuff seems longer as well and the groove diameter was about .005" under mine. Luckily if I have a problem, I can fix mine. I'll let you know how they fire down the road. I need to order a Lee 32ACP mould now.

Best Regards,

Mark

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Re: new .32 French long

#29 Post by 72 usmc » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:28 pm

It seems my calipers may be off on the high side by .001.
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Re: new .32 French long

#30 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:47 pm

That's not uncommon. My digital set was off .002 or even .003 measuring cast bullets. I had to use a fancy high end set of digital micrometers on precision gauge pins to find that out. I thought Lyman gave me a bum sizer die until I did. I used my old mechanical set this time around, which I prefer over digital calipers if they are of a decent grade.

Oh, odds are your calipers might be dirty. Get a clean piece of paper, put it in your calipers jaws snugly and pull it out of them. It usually grabs all the dirt out. A cheap, easy professional fix. Calibrate jaws at zero afterwards.

Man, no bullets and all cases now, argh, growl, argh.

Best Regards,

Mark

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